the random musings not worthy of new thread thread

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

The question comes when the baby is born, and has (for example) symptoms of fetal alcohol syndrome.  The child is now alive and a person, and has disabilities and deformities which are the direct results of the mother's actions.  Does this change things?

Parallels exist for children post-birth: if you starve your kid to death, you are a criminal.  If you deny your kids medical treatment, you are a criminal.  I would argue that this situation would not need a new set of laws, but rather an extension of existing child abuse/negligence laws which are enforced primarily on visible effects, rather than prevention.

No.  The mother is not responsible for the child until the child is human by law.  At that point, any and all government assistance or health care that would be available to well-meaning parents to-be would also be available to our perpetrator of "abuse" in this scenario.

There is no parallel here.  The law clearly defines that abortion is not murder, so fetal abuse is not abuse at all in any sense of the word at any time.  The mother is not legally accountable for any sort of crime, even if it's intentional mistreatment of her own pre-birth "child."

[Father Demon]

There's also a segment of the population that believes a fetus is a person, but doesn't care about abortion because the mother's rights outweigh the unborn child's rights.  These folks could easily be pro-abortion, but anti-fetus damaging. 

[Wingspan]

I knew I read this recently, so Wingboy--your assumptive statement is wrong

Philadelphia is ranked atop for large airports


http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/othercities/southflorida/stories/2008/05/19/daily27.html

they are ranked in these categories

J.D. Power surveyed travelers on accessibility (good highways), baggage claim, check-in/baggage check process, terminal facilities(oohhh...look dear, there's a GAP here), security check and food and retail services.

This says nothing about what matters, like the price of parking, flight delays, sitting on the runway, ticket prices compared to other airports on the same airline. ya know...the things that matter? Who the hell cares if the airport is close to 95 and 476....or that there is a Gap and a Starbucks inside?

Try again.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

There's also a segment of the population that believes a fetus is a person, but doesn't care about abortion because the mother's rights outweigh the unborn child's rights.  These folks could easily be pro-abortion, but anti-fetus damaging. 

Again, if the mother's rights supersede the unborn child's rights, then the mother should be allowed to do whatever the hell she wants within her rights to herself.  By law, the unborn child is a subsidiary of the mother and not its own being.  So, while the idea of fetal abuse could shake many people and inspire debate, it's a non-starter.  As I said before, it's like saying that sawing someone's head off is more humane than waterboarding.  There is no leg to stand on legally in order to enforce anything of the ilk.

That said, OTHER people can be charged for crimes against a fetus as if the fetus were a person.  That ship sailed a long time ago.  It's only the mother herself that can make unilateral decisions about her own growing fetus, and if you're pro-choice, you should be all for it.

[Cerevant]

My personal opinion is that there is a point where the blob of cells becomes a person, and that point is some significant time (late 2nd or 3rd trimester) before the baby is born.  I (personally) think there needs to be some consideration for the rights of the child after that point.  

My constant refrain on these issues is you can do what you want until that affects someone else's right to do the same.  If the kid is killed before it is officially a kid, then the kid doesn't have to suffer its entire life with the affliction forced on them by a negligent mother.  Once that boundary is crossed, I think there has to be liability.

Amusing/disturbing tangent - our midwife told us that she was once asked by a mother why her breast milk wouldn't freeze.  "Oh, you mean I shouldn't drink while I'm breastfeeding?"  There's another "why can't I abuse myself" situation that is indefensible.

Since our country insists that every issue be black and white, that puts me on the liberal side.  I think there is room in the middle, but compromise doesn't seem to work in the two-party system.

[phattymatty]

this place really farging sucks lately.

[Seabiscuit36]

this place really farging sucks lately.

Bierstick is awesome man.  The site gets better after 4 Biersticks

[Father Demon]

So, today did manly things - electrical repair, repaired my sprinkler system, a little indoor plumbing, some garage work, looked for a job.  And some non-manly things - laundry, changing the sheets, and doing dishes.   The sheets needed changing, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, if you know what I mean.

Manly but doing his share, metro, or partly hbionic?

[Seabiscuit36]

So much like Demons Friends bands, there is a battle of the bands here, if anyone wants to vote, my buddy's band is Cubane.  http://www.myspace.com/cubane

http://www.sparkweekly.com/summerseriesVote

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

this place really farging sucks lately.

Whatever you say, fetusbeater.

[Yeti]

So, today did manly things - electrical repair, repaired my sprinkler system, a little indoor plumbing, some garage work, looked for a job.  And some non-manly things - laundry, changing the sheets, and doing dishes.   The sheets needed changing, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, if you know what I mean.

Manly but doing his share, metro, or partly hbionic?

If doing the laundry dishes and changing the sheets=more Hoyda tonight, manly.

If you did them because you don't like dirty sheets...........................................

[Yeti]

Jeff Garcias wife.  Wow.  I thought he was a pillow biter.
This was the only Google image fit to post.  Carmella Decesare likes to show where babies come from.

[rjs246]

Welcome to 1998.

[hbionic]

Jeff Garcia.  Wow.  I thought he was a pillow biter.

You sound so disappointed.

[Yeti]

for you....