Phillies Season Thread 2013

[Sgt PSN]

I'm actually fine with Hamels yucking it up right now.  It's a lost season anyway, so if he's going to have a turd year, might as well be this one.  He's not this bad.  We know this.  He's not a $150mil pitcher either, but he's a lot closer to being that than he is what we're seeing right now.  This is like a repeat of his 2009.   

[ice grillin you]

outside of oct 2008 he was never great...very good is his ceiling and his deal is preposterous...and we havent even discussed the fact that injuries arent to far away on his horizon...which was one of the main reasons i was against the deal...i didnt even think hed be this bad of a pitcher

you cant sign a guy who has exactly one pitch to a 150 mil dolla deal...those arent true stud number ones

[Sgt PSN]

Just a reminder though.

78 wins.

That's 3 games under .500 for the year.  They are currently 3 games under. 

[ice grillin you]

Players 25 or younger with a 12 HR month in the last 20 yrs: Griffey, A-Rod, Vlad, Dunn, Pujols, Beltre, Tex, Prince, Tulo, Bruce, Stanton, J. Upton & HOF

[ice grillin you]

Just a reminder though.

78 wins.

That's 3 games under .500 for the year.  They are currently 3 games under. 

i think they are a .500 team more or less....ill say a little more as theres legit reason to be optimistic for an offensive improvement

83 wins

two reasons i believe i will be closer:

1. when/if they get healthy they will improve slighty
2. come sept they are the kind of team that has just enough good players to win meaningless games ala last year

the other side of this tho is if they hold a late august fire sale

[Eagles_Legendz]

outside of oct 2008 he was never great...very good is his ceiling and his deal is preposterous...and we havent even discussed the fact that injuries arent to far away on his horizon...which was one of the main reasons i was against the deal...i didnt even think hed be this bad of a pitcher

you cant sign a guy who has exactly one pitch to a 150 mil dolla deal...those arent true stud number ones

Ignoring his contract, you cannot be a reasonable baseball person and look at his 2011 statline and say he wasn't great.  Period.  It isn't even a debatable point. 

6th in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, 10th in Ks, 4th in fewest BB per 9, 5th in complete games, 5th in K/BB ratio.  If you want to get sabremetricy, 3rd in WAR for pitchers.

Unless by great you mean literally the best pitcher in the league, Hamels was without a doubt a top 5 pitcher in 2011, and his 2010-2012 run was as consistent as you can get for a starting pitcher.  I don't have the time now, but I'm fairly certain if you do the last 3 years and measure all the relevant pitching stats cumulatively in those 3 years, Hamels would be in the top 10 over that period, which by my understanding of the term is great.

[ice grillin you]

I'm actually fine with Hamels yucking it up right now.  It's a lost season anyway, so if he's going to have a turd year, might as well be this one.  He's not this bad.  We know this.  He's not a $150mil pitcher either, but he's a lot closer to being that than he is what we're seeing right now.  This is like a repeat of his 2009.

hes actually right in the middle of what he is now and a 150 million dollar guy.....but again thats the point

[Sgt PSN]

outside of oct 2008 he was never great...very good is his ceiling and his deal is preposterous...and we havent even discussed the fact that injuries arent to far away on his horizon...which was one of the main reasons i was against the deal...i didnt even think hed be this bad of a pitcher

you cant sign a guy who has exactly one pitch to a 150 mil dolla deal...those arent true stud number ones

I don't disagree with this.  He's basically a really good #2 or a weak #1.  He's been a 15 win pitcher for his entire career who pitched so far above his normal ability in 2008 that most people think that's what he is.....or should be......or could be. 

I'm not sure I'm with you on the injury thing though.  He's under 30 (granted, he's 29) and logs just a hair over 200 IP a season...except 2008 when he hit 227.  But it's not like Doc who logged 6 straight years of at least 220 IP per season prior to 2012.  And I can't remember him having any issues with his throwing arm other than missing a start (maybe 2?) back in 2011 because he had something relatively minor with his shoulder. 

Granted, the fall off can be really quick like we've seen with Doc, but for the time being, I don't think Hamels has been over used or logged excessive innings on his arm.  When he loses some velocity or misses a start here and there due to pain/stiffness/whatever in his throwing arm, then I'll start to wonder.  For now, I think he's just having a bad year during an all around bad season for the team. 

[Eagles_Legendz]

Hamels is not a weak #1.  This is hilarious revisionist history or viewed in light of what is happening right now.

Find 15 pitchers who have been better the last 3 years and give me their stats and compare them.  Hamels has been a solid number one the last 3 years.  All the complaining about his contract doesn't change that.  Only if you have an obsession with starting pitching wins can you say anything otherwise.  In fact his CAREER ERA is the tenth best among active pitchers (period) in baseball right now. 

So stop with all this nonsense.  He sucks this year, yes. 

Someone whose ERA in their career is 10th best among all active pitchers in baseball is not a weak #1.  The end.

[ice grillin you]

6th in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, 10th in Ks, 4th in fewest BB per 9, 5th in complete games, 5th in K/BB ratio.  If you want to get sabremetricy, 3rd in WAR for pitchers.

those are really good numbers...but not 150 mil elite numbers....soft tossin 14-10 guys dont get that kind of money....you also have to look at his stuff and his make upnot just stats....it was pretty easy to see that he wasnt THAT guy...but ill admit im more of an eye test person than a numbers guy

[Eagles_Legendz]

And if you want a reference, here you go:

1.   Mariano Rivera 2.208   R
2.   Clayton Kershaw   2.706   L
3.   Adam Wainwright 3.107   R
4.   Felix Hernandez 3.175   R
5.   Johan Santana   3.203   L
6.   Jered Weaver   3.244   R
7.   Roy Oswalt    3.282   R
8.   Matt Cain   3.348   R
9.   Roy Halladay    3.373   R
10.   Cole Hamels    3.393   L
11.   Tim Lincecum   3.406   R
12.   Justin Verlander   3.412   R
13.   Tim Hudson   3.463   R
14.   Jake Peavy    3.465   R
15.   CC Sabathia 3.515   L
16.   Cliff Lee   3.538   L
17.   Chad Billingsley 3.653   R
18.   Carlos Zambrano    3.662   R
19.   Dan Haren    3.706   R
20.   Jon Lester    3.736   L
21.   Chris Carpenter 3.759   R
22.   Zack Greinke 3.780   R
23.   Matt Garza 3.840   R
24.   James Shields  3.844   R
25.   Andy Pettitte 3.855  L   

[Eagles_Legendz]

igy - if you want to just rant about the contract, fine.  I think there are far worse ones on this roster unfortunately, but I'm not a fan of dropping 150 mil on any pitcher.  I took issue to you linking your comment that said "hes an ok pitcher".  He has been consistently very good the last years and awful this year.

[ice grillin you]

This is hilarious revisionist history

not for me...look it up i said i would have never signed him to that deal...admittedly some of it had to do with the fact that the team was going to be horrible for most of his prime years and his back....but i was never giving 150 mil to a one trick change up softy pony

[ice grillin you]

igy - if you want to just rant about the contract, fine.  I think there are far worse ones on this roster unfortunately, but I'm not a fan of dropping 150 mil on any pitcher.  I took issue to you linking your comment that said "hes an ok pitcher".  He has been consistently very good the last years and awful this year.

well of course its all about the contract....you think anyone would care about him if he had jimmys deal....and i contend from day one of his deal to the last day he will have been an ok pitcher.....very bad to very good at times....in others words an ok guy

[Sgt PSN]

He's a weak #1 because legit #1 pitchers don't have entire seasons like 2009 or his start to 2013.  I like the guy, but he gets shook pretty easily.  And you know who isn't ahead of Hamels on that list?  Cliff Lee.  And Doc is just 1 spot higher.  But they were both higher in the rotation than Hamels.  And unlike either of those 2, Hamels actually won a WS with this club and still didn't get the #1 or even #2 spot in the rotation.  Doesn't that tell you something?