U.S.A. tortures. Go ahead, deny it Bush lovers.

[Tomahawk]

The biggest problem with torture, however you choose to define it, is the complete circumvention of due process. Not to mention the "Patriot" Act allows for legitimate citizens to be exposed to "enhanced interrogative techniques" (nice farging euphemism).

[fansince61]

except torturing has been proven to not work...and often does the opposite by getting false info

Torture does not work if the person in hot seat doesn't know anything.  I have never tortured anyone but I have seen first hand how effective scaring the schtein out of someone is....they will give up their mother and tell everything + if properly motivated.  The torture doesn't work crowd are "bending the numbers" for some political feel good reason.  It obviously doesn't work if the prisoner doesn't know the answer and it should be used rarely with great discretion.

[Butchers Bill]

The biggest problem with torture, however you choose to define it, is the complete circumvention of due process.

The "due process" issue is the problem with terrorists.  Since they don't belong to a standing "Army" they aren't POW's (who you don't put on trial because they have not broken the law), yet we have created these terms "lawful" and "unlawful" enemy combatants and no one knows what to do with them.  Generally you don't hand over POW's until the war is over, but terrorism never ends, so now what?  Put these guys on trial for shooting as US soldiers?  For carrying weapons in Afganistan?  For having bomb making material?  This isn't CSI.  Who will be the witnesses?  Will there be a discovery period?  Does each and every single person you bring off the battlefield have to be read Miranda rights in six different languages to make sure they understand?  Does each and every single "combatant" get their own trial?? 

I don't have an answer, but its clearly an issue that no one has been able to solve yet. 

[Butchers Bill]

...and it should be used rarely with great discretion.

Don't think the leftists here will bother reading that.  They have been ranting all day about rampant torture and think they are on a roll.  I have not seen anyone on this board support the use of "torture" (again - undefined) as a standard operating procedure, but yet that's what will be discussed...again.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

perhaps it's hypocritical but even though i'm against torture, i totally support the death penalty. 

I am oddly enough really starting to despise the death penalty a bit.  The problem is that I don't trust our judicial system to get it correct.  There are too many people wrongly convicted.  Sadly, many guilty people also go free.

Plus, you'll all be surprised that this pulls at my heartstrings, but the death penalty in the USA is MORE EXPENSIVE than life in prison for the taxpayer.  Awful.

[Sgt PSN]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23576-2005Apr3.html

this story is a few years old but i don't remember hearing about it.  i think it's pretty interesting though.  

On Jan. 19, 1991, in the opening days of the war to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation, Air Force Maj. Jeffrey Tice's F-16 was shot down over Baghdad. Over the next six weeks in Iraqi captivity, Tice was repeatedly beaten, subjected to electric shock and left in a dirty cell with meager rations.

........

In April 2002, Tice, now a retired lieutenant colonel, and 16 other former POWs and their families sued the Saddam Hussein government in U.S. District Court in Washington. Iraq refused to contest the charges, and in 2003, Judge Richard W. Roberts determined that the plaintiffs were entitled to $959 million in damages, which would have to come from assets now controlled by the new U.S.-backed Iraqi government.

......

Yet today, the Bush administration is urging the Supreme Court to oppose the former prisoners of war.

[Sgt PSN]

perhaps it's hypocritical but even though i'm against torture, i totally support the death penalty. 

I am oddly enough really starting to despise the death penalty a bit.  The problem is that I don't trust our judicial system to get it correct.  There are too many people wrongly convicted.  Sadly, many guilty people also go free.

Plus, you'll all be surprised that this pulls at my heartstrings, but the death penalty in the USA is MORE EXPENSIVE than life in prison for the taxpayer.  Awful.

how is it more expensive?  i'm guessing that you are factoring in the additional legal costs that will be accrued because the convicted with file dozens of appeals and the gov't will be footing the bill for all of those legal fees?  i guess it makes sense.  hadn't really thought about it that way before. 

as for the wrongful convictions, i admit it's a concern.  but i think wrongful convictions are less likely to happen today because of the advancements in dna testing and forensic science.  and police and prosecutors are so hesitant to file charges these days unless they are nearly certain they can get a conviction, which usually means they won't go after someone unless they've got a mountain of indisputable evidence that points blame at the accused. 

it might not be 100% but the margin for error is gradually becoming smaller and smaller. 

[fansince61]

Remember, the Geneva Convention only applies to uniformed combat soldiers.  What you have in Iraq, Pakistan and Afgan.  are civilian nonuniform combatants which as per the Geneva Convention are spies and can be shot.  They do not have to be given Geneva Status.  This was another colossal Bush fargup when the invasion started as he was trying to kiss middle east/liberal/Europen ass and "play nice" in war.  If a nuke goes off in Hollywood which could have been prevented with more aggressive "interrogation techniques" the interrogation guidelines" will change faster than greased owl poo.

[rjs246]

The biggest problem with the death penalty is that it is used disproportionately against minorities. White dude gets convicted of murder, he gets life. Black dude gets convicted, he gets the chamber. The statistics are staggering. Actually, every statistic I've ever read screams that the death penalty is an unfair practice.

Having said that, I still support it. There are some people who can't be rehabilitated and who's crimes are so awful that they shouldn't be among the living. And I'll never be convinced otherwise.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

how is it more expensive?  i'm guessing that you are factoring in the additional legal costs that will be accrued because the convicted with file dozens of appeals and the gov't will be footing the bill for all of those legal fees?  i guess it makes sense.  hadn't really thought about it that way before. 

Yes, it's something like that.  I mean, if they just took the dude outside the courtroom and blew his brains out, it would be different.

as for the wrongful convictions, i admit it's a concern.  but i think wrongful convictions are less likely to happen today because of the advancements in dna testing and forensic science.  and police and prosecutors are so hesitant to file charges these days unless they are nearly certain they can get a conviction, which usually means they won't go after someone unless they've got a mountain of indisputable evidence that points blame at the accused. 

it might not be 100% but the margin for error is gradually becoming smaller and smaller. 

It's not even 90%, probably.  Smaller is not good enough.  It should be some sort of Six Sigma shtein.

[Sgt PSN]

point taken.  i admit it's a flawed system.  but that still doesn't mean that i would be opposed to a serial killer getting the death needle. 

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

In theory, me neither.

[Sgt PSN]

yeah, your issue isn't with the death penalty itself.  it's with the system that decides who lives and dies. 

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Naturally.  I'm a cold-blooded right wing zealout!  Kill 'em all!

[fansince61]

I have no confidence in the government or law enforcement bureaucracies.  The number of times information is witheld at trial by the prosecution that would exonerate the defendant, but is withheld just so the DA's conviction "stats" would go up and advance his career really sucks.

Answer:  The prosecutors serve the term the defendant was to get, problem solved, mission accomplished