See ya Tookie

[henchmanUK]

Damn.  I said I wasn't going to argue with you fools.

I'm glad you did. I agree with just about everything you said.

[Diomedes]

Its a lot more expensive to execute than to jail for life. A lot of that cost is the endless appeals process and other legal "hoops" the state has to go through to make it happen. Tookie was on death row for 24 years and had at least a dozen appeals.

Another large chunk of the cost is that Death Row is a very different jail experience than regular prison.  They are seperated from the general population.  It's much more expensive.  Higher guard ratio per prisoner, more rules to follow, takes more space to keep them, etc.

But if you want stats, I can't help right now.

[JTrotter Fan]

Has there been any research into what the cost difference is between keeping an animal like that locked up for life vs. the death penalty?

My ultimate feelings are that I'd rather see scumbags like Scott Peterson in a jail cell being ass raped for life, rather than put to death.

But i am just curious about the costs of both.

Here ya go PG.  LINK

  D. THE COST OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE   VS   THE DEATH PENALTY

  Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years.  Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.

Cost of Life Without Parole:  Cases   
Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases                  Cost of Death Penalty Cases      
1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at 
                                                                                                 
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals      = $3.01 million              $60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at   a 2% (3) annual cost                                                                                                                   a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals      = $1.88 million   
2. Same, except 3% (3)       = $4.04 million            Same, except 3% (3)      = $1.89 million 
3. Same, except 4% (3)      = $5.53 million            Same, except 4% (3)      = $1.91 million 
 

    * There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.

(1) The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost  is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent  LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases.  The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.

(2) U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS 1996.

(3) Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions, and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.

(4) $75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. We believe this cost estimate is very low. We have over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. Our exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost,  defense and prosecution cost, including voir dire, court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though we have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.

(5) 6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years.  If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years (Capital Punishment 1994, BJS, 1995). Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still  $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).
   
One of the USA's largest death rows is in Texas, with 442 inmates, of which 229, or 52%, have been on death row over 6 years -  44, or 10%, have been on for over 15 years, 8 for over 20 years. 60 inmates, nationwide, have been on death row over 18 years. (as of 12/96).

NOTE - 10/19/00 - We received a post which located a flaw within our cost evaluation. The reader stated that we should "present value" all the costs of both a life sentence and the death penalty and that, if we do so, a life sentence is cheaper than a death sentence. Using the numbers in our analysis, such is a good point.

It should be noted that we were intentionally generous in minimizing life costs within our analysis. Please review we have not included

1)the recent studies on geriatric care at about $70,000/year/prisoner in today's dollars , or

2) the recent explosion of Hepatitis C and AIDS within the prison system, or

3) the cost savings to jurisdictions based on plea bargains to maximum life sentences, which can only occur due solely to the presence of the death penalty. Such should accrue as a cost benefit of the death penalty, and

4) none of the above have been included in our cost analysis. All of which either increase the cost of a life sentence or accrue as a cost credit to the death penalty, and

5) And we have been extremely generous to the anti death penalty position with our numbers to begin with. I suspect that an average life without parole sentence costs closer to $150,000-$300,000, for all pre-trial, trial and appeals, as opposed to the $75,000 used in our study.

Those omissions should not be considered a balancing, because accuracy is paramount. There is no cost study which fully evaluates all of those issues. We hope to update the data at some point with a more thorough review.

[PhillyGirl]

The problem with that link is that its to www.prodeathpenalty.com

Sites with an agenda have a way of skewering stats to their advantage.

I am looking for UNBIASED stats.

But thanks for looking it up for me. 

[Butchers Bill]

Its a lot more expensive to execute than to jail for life. A lot of that cost is the endless appeals process and other legal "hoops" the state has to go through to make it happen. Tookie was on death row for 24 years and had at least a dozen appeals.

Another large chunk of the cost is that Death Row is a very different jail experience than regular prison.  They are seperated from the general population.  It's much more expensive.  Higher guard ratio per prisoner, more rules to follow, takes more space to keep them, etc.

But if you want stats, I can't help right now.

Don't need stats, because I know that is all correct.  You actually point out some flaws in the system that could be corrected to make it more cost efficient.  There is no need for seperate quarters for these prisoners.  If you get rid of that, you lose the higher guard ratio and free up more space to house all prisoners.   

[Cerevant]

The point is that the government is killing people by policy.   A free people can never allow their own government to kill them.  That's just plain logic.  If you say the government can kill citizens, then you are saying that the government can kill you.  But no one can truly divest himself of sovereignity over himself.

My question is, how are long prison sentences and/or hard labor - both of which are fundamental denials of freedom - any different?  Are you saying we should just deport the lawless?

[Rome]

I'm curious why so many of you want people killed by the State.

I understand the thirst for revenge.  Hell, there's nothing more I'd like better than to find a piece of shtein like bin Laden and torture him to death in a public display of revenge.

That said...

We've spent the last 200 years as a country going to war with other countries who used state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression, yet for some reason, it's okay for the United States to use it because "justice" is somehow served?

What makes our use of murder righteous and other countries use of it "evil?"  And let's no kid ourselves either.  It's murder, plain and simple.

I don't know... it's a complicated issue to say the least.

[Rome]

There is no need for seperate quarters for these prisoners.  If you get rid of that, you lose the higher guard ratio and free up more space to house all prisoners.   

So you're saying that people who are imprisoned for tax evasion should be housed with serial killers?

[Butchers Bill]

We've spent the last 200 years as a country going to war with other countries who used state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression, yet for some reason, it's okay for the United States to use it because "justice" is somehow served?

Are you referring to WWI and II?  I cannot recall a time when we went to war with a country over their use of the death penalty.  Genocide is not the death penalty. 

[Rome]

We've spent the last 200 years as a country going to war with other countries who used state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression, yet for some reason, it's okay for the United States to use it because "justice" is somehow served?

Are you referring to WWI and II?  I cannot recall a time when we went to war with a country over their use of the death penalty.  Genocide is not the death penalty. 

* Sighs *

You know what the farg I meant.  Jesus...   

[Butchers Bill]

We've spent the last 200 years as a country going to war with other countries who used state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression, yet for some reason, it's okay for the United States to use it because "justice" is somehow served?

Are you referring to WWI and II?  I cannot recall a time when we went to war with a country over their use of the death penalty.  Genocide is not the death penalty. 

* Sighs *

You know what the farg I meant.  Jesus...   

Pissed your gross exaggeration was called out?   

[Cerevant]

We've spent the last 200 years as a country going to war with other countries who used state-sponsored murder...

Um, but what exactly is war, except state sponsored murder?

... as a tool of oppression, yet for some reason, it's okay for the United States to use it because "justice" is somehow served?

There's a difference between using death as a tool for opression, and using it for "justice", or even for revenge.  I'm not saying it is better, but you are throwing dramatically different causes together to oppose a common outcome.

Justice is the simpler argument - our laws dicate the rules and the consequences.  If you don't like the laws, you have two options:
- Participate in the political process to get the laws changed
- Leave the state/country for a state/country which has laws you are more in agreement with

Have you done either?

[Rome]

Did the English use state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression?

Did the Spanish?

Did the Confederacy?

Did The Germans?

Did The Germans Again?

Did The North Koreans/Red Chinese?

Did The North Vietnamese?

Did Saddam Hussein?


Yes, Joel... that's what I meant.  The countries/despots we've gone to war with during the past 200 years used murder as a tool of oppression/subjugation.

[Diomedes]

There is no need for seperate quarters for these prisoners.  If you get rid of that, you lose the higher guard ratio and free up more space to house all prisoners.

I'm just dreaming these up, but I think they propbably seperate death row inmates for some good reasons.

I'm guessing that one reason is this: Since they are slated to die, they have nothing to lose, therefore it might not be a good idea to throw them in with other prisoners, who do have something to lose.  Mixing the doomed with the simply incarcerated creates an ugly recipe for disaster.
Another reason: those slated to die are more likely to attempt suicide.  Prisons are supposed to do everything they can to keep people from killing themselves, so death row inmates are given more attention than the general population.  What good is it charging a guy with Death, only to have him hang himself in GP?  No Vengeance Boner payoff in that case.
Finally, perhaps it's safer for guards if Death Row inmates are housed differently.  Along the same lines as the first point, about Death Row inmates having little to lose, maybe keeping them apart from the General Population is safer for the guards?

[Diomedes]

My question is, how are long prison sentences and/or hard labor - both of which are fundamental denials of freedom - any different? Are you saying we should just deport the lawless?

If you can't see the difference between incarceration and execution, I'm dont' know how to answer your question.

Regarding deportation, no.   Back when there was a wilderness to which you could banish the criminals, I suppose it was an option.  But there's no where to banish people to any longer.  So prison is the option.