See ya Tookie

[MURP]

this talk reminds me of this military thing.   Who wears the maroon beret?

[Butchers Bill]

Did the English use state-sponsored murder as a tool of oppression?

Did the Spanish?

Did the Confederacy?

Did The Germans?

Did The Germans Again?

Did The North Koreans/Red Chinese?

Did The North Vietnamese?

Did Saddam Hussein?


Yes, Joel... that's what I meant.  The countries/despots we've gone to war with during the past 200 years used murder as a tool of oppression/subjugation.

I thought your insinuation was that we went to war because of the death penalty.  You could just as easily say we went to war with those countries because they are Homo sapiens.  The death penalty had nothing to do with those wars. 

[hunt]

killing murderers is kewel.

[Cerevant]

My question is, how are long prison sentences and/or hard labor - both of which are fundamental denials of freedom - any different? Are you saying we should just deport the lawless?

If you can't see the difference between incarceration and execution, I'm dont' know how to answer your question.

Regarding deportation, no.   Back when there was a wilderness to which you could banish the criminals, I suppose it was an option.  But there's no where to banish people to any longer.  So prison is the option.

It is not that I cannot see the difference, but it begs the question of where the line of "justifiable denial of freedom" is.  At what point does denial of freedom become cruel and unusual punishment?  Your argument is that a free state should not execute its citizens - but is anything short of execution somehow OK?  How about:
- life imprisonment?
- hard labor?
- subject to medical experimentation?
- solitary confinement?
- harsh imprisonment conditions such as those described in "Catch me if you can" by Frank Abagnale, where the French prisons consist of 4' cube dirt & concrete cells with a bucket for sanitary facilities, complete absence of light or sound except for irregularly scheduled feedings?
- physical beatings?
- psychological manipulation/conditioning such as described in "A Clockwork Orange"?
- Amputation, castration or other compensatory physical punishment?

How can we say on one hand that there are inalienable human rights, and in the next breath take those rights away from people who's behavior we do not approve of?

And what about those reformed criminals, who have served their punishments and gone on to live honest lives, yet who continue to suffer consequences of their actions decades after their sentences were complete?

The bottom line is that the penal system is organized revenge.  If the life (or one of the above) vs. death issue were so cut and dry, why do we prevent inmates from committing suicide?

[Butchers Bill]

If the life (or one of the above) vs. death issue were so cut and dry, why do we prevent inmates from committing suicide?

Lawsuits.

[Cerevant]

If the life (or one of the above) vs. death issue were so cut and dry, why do we prevent inmates from committing suicide?

Lawsuits.

I questioned my wording almost immediately after posting.  It should be, why is there a need to prevent inmates from committing suicide?  If life in prison is such an obviously preferable circumstance, why do inmates want to kill themselves?

[phillymic2000]

I am for the death penalty, part of me wants to see the revenge for the killing, and part of me wants to show criminals that there is a reaction to their action. You kill someone, you get a fair trial,and in some cases a jury decides on death. LWOP is weak to me, yes they lose their freedom, but they can get a college degree, watch Cable TV, get  three good meals, work out, oh yeah they can kill again, harm guards other prisoners, continue to commit crimes behind bars.

[General_Failure]

What do they need a degree for if they've got life without parole?

[MDS]

Can't we all just end gang violence with a lock in at the rec center?

[General_Failure]

You know as well as I do that the only solution is a switchblade duel in a dirty alley between the two gang leaders.

[MadMarchHare]

They told him don't you ever come around here
Don't wanna see your face, you better disappear
The fire's in their eyes and their words are really clear
So beat it, just beat it

You better run, you better do what you can
Don't wanna see no blood, don't be a macho man
You wanna be tough, better do what you can
So beat it, but you wanna be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it, beat it
Just beat it, beat it
Just beat it, beat it
Just beat it, beat it

They're out to get you, better leave while you can
Don't wanna be a boy, you wanna be a man
You wanna stay alive, better do what you can
So beat it, just beat it

You have to show them that you're really not scared
You're playin' with your life, this ain't no truth or dare
They'll kick you, then they beat you,
Then they'll tell you it's fair
So beat it, but you wanna be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it, beat it
Beat it, beat it, beat it

Beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it, beat it
Beat it, beat it, beat it

Beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Just beat it, beat it
Beat it, beat it, beat it

[Diomedes]

It is not that I cannot see the difference, but it begs the question of where the line of "justifiable denial of freedom" is. At what point does denial of freedom become cruel and unusual punishment? Your argument is that a free state should not execute its citizens - but is anything short of execution somehow OK? How about:
- life imprisonment?
- hard labor?
- subject to medical experimentation?
- solitary confinement?
- harsh imprisonment conditions such as those described in "Catch me if you can" by Frank Abagnale, where the French prisons consist of 4' cube dirt & concrete cells with a bucket for sanitary facilities, complete absence of light or sound except for irregularly scheduled feedings?
- physical beatings?
- psychological manipulation/conditioning such as described in "A Clockwork Orange"?
- Amputation, castration or other compensatory physical punishment?

How can we say on one hand that there are inalienable human rights, and in the next breath take those rights away from people who's behavior we do not approve of?

And what about those reformed criminals, who have served their punishments and gone on to live honest lives, yet who continue to suffer consequences of their actions decades after their sentences were complete?

The bottom line is that the penal system is organized revenge.  If the life (or one of the above) vs. death issue were so cut and dry, why do we prevent inmates from committing suicide?

There's a lot in that post. 

Fair questions all.

[Sgt PSN]

this talk reminds me of this military thing. Who wears the maroon beret?

The maroon beret has been the international symbol of airborne forces since its selection for use by the British Parachute Regiment in 1942. The color reportedly was chosen by novelist Daphne Du Maurier, the wife of the British airborne commander, MG Frederick Browning. In 1943 MG Browning granted a battalion of the US Army's 509th Parachute Infantry Regiment honorary membership in the British Parachute Regiment and authorized them to wear British maroon berets. US Army advisers to Vietnamese airborne forces wore the Vietnamese maroon beret during the Vietnam War. In addition, after HQDA encouraged the unofficial use of morale-enhancing headgear in 1973, airborne forces chose to wear the maroon international parachute beret until CSA Rogers' ban of all such unofficial headgear in 1979. On 28 November 1980, however, HQDA revised its ban on berets to authorize airborne organizations to wear the maroon beret.

http://www.army.mil/features/beret/beret.htm

[LBIggle]

a scumbag gets fried that co-started the first or second biggest gang in the US.  he's indirectly responsible for hundreds of deaths including a few on his own hands.   my only gripe is they didn't do it sooner.  why waste the money to house and educate scummers like this.

oh and i liked the "house all the inmates together" recommendation.  riots are neat.

my dad worked at trenton state a while ago for almost 15 years.  most of these "people" don't deserve the air their breathing, nevermind the money being spent on them to make sure they have three squares and internet access.

[MadMarchHare]

The money isn't the issue, I think it's been clearly shown that enforcing the death penalty is way more expensive than life in prison.

You're either for state-sanctioned vengeance killing or against it.