Hurricane Katrina Devastates The Gulf Coast.

[Sgt PSN]

Joel,

I am far from a liberal- remember, I think I tested even more conservative than you did on that Political test that was linked to CF a few months back.

I also have stressed that I do not solely blame Bush. In fact, I would, like you, put more responsibility on the state and local governments than on the national government. But all must share in the responsibility for the lack of governmental response to this emergency. Help from the government- local, state and national- was far to delayed and far too little when it first did come.

I'll take your word on the National Guard situation. Perhaps that is something that the government needs to look into. The National Guard, if I can reminisce, used to be stressed as an aid in situations exactly like this. I can even remember commericals from my childhood that showed National Guard troops hoisting sandbags to prevent flooding.

The has to be SOME way of being able to mobilize troops to help out in times of emergency. What happened in Louisiana and Mississippi was unacceptable. We've gone to the aid of other nations faster than the government moved to help its own citizens.

Hopefully Bush can move to help the people of the Gulf coast and erase some of the blights against his presidential record. However, I don't believe tha he will ever be able to erase them all.

And some plan must be put together to prevent this from happening again. The government must be more responsive in the face of natural disaster.

Well said. 

Re:  National Guard.   You are correct with thier primary mission being to provide aid and assistance on a state level.  Basically, the National Guard is a state run army.  While their funding comes from the DOD, they basically report to their resepctive state's governor.  But of course, during times or War and/or national emergency (like right now) the President can take control over the Nat Guard and use them at his discretion (see airport security post 9/11 and OIF I and II). 

Re: Mobilizing the National Guard.  It is and most likely will always be a logistical nightmare to try and do a massive mobilization of National Guardsmen.  Reason being is that the Guard is primarily a reserve force.  The projected end strentgh (manpower) for the Nat. Guard for FY-05 (which ends Sep 30) is 350,000.  National Guard units themselves are scattered all throughout the country, many times blending right in with the civilian environment surrounding them.  There are no Nat. Guard bases like the Army, Navy AF and Marines have.  They are typically limited to 1 maybe even 2 buildings where they gather one weekend a month for their training.  So what we're looking at here is basically 350,00 Guardsman who in many cases may live in excess of 2 or 3 hours away from their closest armory.  They've got regular full time jobs in the civilian world and trying to coordinate a mass recall of all of them is a lengthy and time consuming process.  The Army in itself is too large to initiate any type of speedy response.  They are big, slow and methodical.  When units are mobilized, the individual members must first be contacted.  They're given a report date/time.  For those who do not live local to the unit, it's obviously going to take them longer to get there.  Also you've got to take into account that many of these reservists have civilian jobs that may require them to travel (ie: salesmen businessmen, etc) in which case it may take them a day or 2 to get back.  Then, once the unit is assembled, they will report to the closest military instillation which may also be several hours away.  Gear and equipment must be issued, warning orders given and mission briefs.  In some cases it could take several days to completely stand up a single Guard unit. 

If you remember the attacks on 9/11, all airports where shut down for 4 or 5 days.  When they reopened, the Nat. Guard was there.  The gov't had the luxury of just closing the airports for a few days in order to not only assess the damage and additional potential threats, but they also needed that time to mobilize the guard.  This was done at the state level so all of the mobilizations were of a local nature.  There was no massive move required.  And it still took several days to make that happen.  So when a catrophe like Hurricane Katrina happens, there is simply no way that the Guard can mobilize themselves quickly enough.  And unlike 9/11, we can't just "shut down" the affected area to call in support. 

I'm not defending it or suggesting that it's right.  I'm just saying that it's the nature of the beast.  The Guard is designed to provide assitance on a local level.  When something like this happens, they simply aren't prepared to handle it.  Perhaps they (the big wigs) need to reevaluate the purpose and structure of the Nat. Guard and improve it's readiness and mobilization capabilities.  But under is current structure, it's logistically impossible to mobilize a force primarily made up of reservists in a short amount of time.  The most logical solution would be to increase the amount of active duty guard members and have specifically trained units that are designed for immediate mobilization.  Of course, this would cost a bunch of money that would come out of the taxpayer's pocket so I'm not sure if they'd be willing to foot the bill on that one or not.

Having said all of that, the Nat. Guard aren't the ones to blame.  The level of blame is on a much higher and broader scope imo.   

[Sgt PSN]

Oh, and WTF is Japan doing? http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.world.aid/index.html

Japan has offered to provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said. Japan also will provide up to $300,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if it receives requests, the ministry said.

Is that a joke? $200k from the second wealthiest country in the world when Nigeria is giving $1mm. We got shtein on for initially only offering $300mm in tsunami relief. Are they still pissed over that thing with those 2 atomic bombs 60 years ago?

I don't care if Japan is only offering $5.  It's still more money for the effort than what we've got now.  Now you're starting to sound like a spoiled little rich kid complaining about the brand new BMW you got for your 16th birthday because it didn't come with a 6 disc cd changer. 

Sure, they could offer more money.  A lot more money.  But the bottom line is that they don't have to offer shtein. 

[Geowhizzer]

Joel,

I am far from a liberal- remember, I think I tested even more conservative than you did on that Political test that was linked to CF a few months back.

I also have stressed that I do not solely blame Bush. In fact, I would, like you, put more responsibility on the state and local governments than on the national government. But all must share in the responsibility for the lack of governmental response to this emergency. Help from the government- local, state and national- was far to delayed and far too little when it first did come.

I'll take your word on the National Guard situation. Perhaps that is something that the government needs to look into. The National Guard, if I can reminisce, used to be stressed as an aid in situations exactly like this. I can even remember commericals from my childhood that showed National Guard troops hoisting sandbags to prevent flooding.

The has to be SOME way of being able to mobilize troops to help out in times of emergency. What happened in Louisiana and Mississippi was unacceptable. We've gone to the aid of other nations faster than the government moved to help its own citizens.

Hopefully Bush can move to help the people of the Gulf coast and erase some of the blights against his presidential record. However, I don't believe tha he will ever be able to erase them all.

And some plan must be put together to prevent this from happening again. The government must be more responsive in the face of natural disaster.

Well said. 

Re:  National Guard.   You are correct with thier primary mission being to provide aid and assistance on a state level.  Basically, the National Guard is a state run army.  While their funding comes from the DOD, they basically report to their resepctive state's governor.  But of course, during times or War and/or national emergency (like right now) the President can take control over the Nat Guard and use them at his discretion (see airport security post 9/11 and OIF I and II). 

Re: Mobilizing the National Guard.  It is and most likely will always be a logistical nightmare to try and do a massive mobilization of National Guardsmen.  Reason being is that the Guard is primarily a reserve force.  The projected end strentgh (manpower) for the Nat. Guard for FY-05 (which ends Sep 30) is 350,000.  National Guard units themselves are scattered all throughout the country, many times blending right in with the civilian environment surrounding them.  There are no Nat. Guard bases like the Army, Navy AF and Marines have.  They are typically limited to 1 maybe even 2 buildings where they gather one weekend a month for their training.  So what we're looking at here is basically 350,00 Guardsman who in many cases may live in excess of 2 or 3 hours away from their closest armory.  They've got regular full time jobs in the civilian world and trying to coordinate a mass recall of all of them is a lengthy and time consuming process.  The Army in itself is too large to initiate any type of speedy response.  They are big, slow and methodical.  When units are mobilized, the individual members must first be contacted.  They're given a report date/time.  For those who do not live local to the unit, it's obviously going to take them longer to get there.  Also you've got to take into account that many of these reservists have civilian jobs that may require them to travel (ie: salesmen businessmen, etc) in which case it may take them a day or 2 to get back.  Then, once the unit is assembled, they will report to the closest military instillation which may also be several hours away.  Gear and equipment must be issued, warning orders given and mission briefs.  In some cases it could take several days to completely stand up a single Guard unit. 

If you remember the attacks on 9/11, all airports where shut down for 4 or 5 days.  When they reopened, the Nat. Guard was there.  The gov't had the luxury of just closing the airports for a few days in order to not only assess the damage and additional potential threats, but they also needed that time to mobilize the guard.  This was done at the state level so all of the mobilizations were of a local nature.  There was no massive move required.  And it still took several days to make that happen.  So when a catrophe like Hurricane Katrina happens, there is simply no way that the Guard can mobilize themselves quickly enough.  And unlike 9/11, we can't just "shut down" the affected area to call in support. 

I'm not defending it or suggesting that it's right.  I'm just saying that it's the nature of the beast.  The Guard is designed to provide assitance on a local level.  When something like this happens, they simply aren't prepared to handle it.  Perhaps they (the big wigs) need to reevaluate the purpose and structure of the Nat. Guard and improve it's readiness and mobilization capabilities.  But under is current structure, it's logistically impossible to mobilize a force primarily made up of reservists in a short amount of time.  The most logical solution would be to increase the amount of active duty guard members and have specifically trained units that are designed for immediate mobilization.  Of course, this would cost a bunch of money that would come out of the taxpayer's pocket so I'm not sure if they'd be willing to foot the bill on that one or not.

Having said all of that, the Nat. Guard aren't the ones to blame.  The level of blame is on a much higher and broader scope imo.   

I would never dream of blaming the people who choose to serve in the Guard.  Especially since my nephew may be joining them in the next few weeks. 

I know that there aren't any easy answers.  Maybe have a batallion of our home-based military do the "first alert" response, or something like that.  I am far from a military mind, but there has to be something that can be done to more quickly and effectively respond to something like Katrina than happened in New Orleans.

Hopefully the tragedy here will spur the leaders of the Gulf States and President Bush and his administration to make a better emergency plan.  It's about the best that can come out of this bleak situation:  a determination that something like New Orleans doesn't happen again.

[rjs246]

Impeach Mother Nature.

[Geowhizzer]

Oh, and WTF is Japan doing? http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.world.aid/index.html

Japan has offered to provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said. Japan also will provide up to $300,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if it receives requests, the ministry said.

Is that a joke? $200k from the second wealthiest country in the world when Nigeria is giving $1mm. We got shtein on for initially only offering $300mm in tsunami relief. Are they still pissed over that thing with those 2 atomic bombs 60 years ago?

I don't care if Japan is only offering $5.  It's still more money for the effort than what we've got now.  Now you're starting to sound like a spoiled little rich kid complaining about the brand new BMW you got for your 16th birthday because it didn't come with a 6 disc cd changer. 

Sure, they could offer more money.  A lot more money.  But the bottom line is that they don't have to offer shtein. 

Also, Japan is having their own problems with a hurricane right now.

Weather Underground

[Sgt PSN]

Impeach Mother Nature.

  Can we knock off Father Time while we're at it? 

[General_Failure]

Man, don't even think that. He controls time. If you go after him he'll make it so you never existed, or stayed married to your ex.

[Sgt PSN]

 

[phillymic2000]

Looks like big mama has enough food and water for her dog

[Susquehanna Birder]

Is that a question mark on the floater?

[PhillyGirl]

Flags at the Phillies game were at half mast tonight. We saw it as we drove by the ballpark.

[General_Failure]

You sure that wasn't just for the Phillies suckage instead of Katrina?

[Butchers Bill]

What I can't stomach is this persistence that somehow it was the red tape that caused the deaths, not the people in charge.  That's bullshtein. 

Red Tape

More Red Tape

Even more Red Tape

You can blame the people in charge all you want, but you better go back a loooong way.

[Diomedes]

Effective leadership cuts red tape, bro.  Bush and the conservatives own this tragedy.  They have the executive, and the congress, and they're supposedly the "can do" people.  The buck stops with the president.  He put FEMA under Homeland Security.  He made appointments to these agencies based on politics, not qualifications.  He cut the budgets for flood and hurricane protection in LA every year since becoming president.  People are dead because of that.  He's the worst president this country has ever seen, and it's getting worse by the day.  As I've said earlier, it's time for some accountablility in this regime.  It's been one colossal farg up after another with Bush, none of which have been his fault according to him.  And no one has been fired.  It's time for personal responsibility to make a play on the scene.  Chertoff and Brown should be fired.  Bush should face impeachment charges. 

Worst.President.Ever

[Diomedes]

Snopes confirms what most of us know:  this was predicted, in detail, long ago.

And here's a survivor's account from a Brit..

Asked what assistance was offered to people stranded in the hotel, he replied: "Nothing. The only information we got from anybody in authority was if a policeman walked past and we shouted to them out of the windows.

"The only information we ever got off them was negative: Don't go here, don't go there. There was no 'Are you OK? Are you safe? Have you got water?'.

"I couldn't describe how bad the authorities were - just little things like taking photographs of us, as we are standing on the roof waving for help, for their own personal photo albums, little snapshot photographs.

"At one point, there were a load of girls on the roof of the lobby of the hotel saying 'Can you help us?' and the policemen said 'Show us what you've got' and made signs for them to lift their T-shirts.

"When they said no, they said 'fine' and motored off down the road in their motorboat."

The Scotts witnessed people, including hotel staff and guests, returning from looting sprees with mobile phones, radios and clothes which they attempted to sell to the stranded guests.

...

Mr Scott said: "I could not have a lower opinion of the authorities from the police officers on the street right up to George Bush.

"But I have a completely opposite view of the American people.

"There were so many random acts of kindness - people would go without so my son wouldn't go hungry.

"The American people saved us. I wish I could say the same for the American authorities. George Bush and his government left those people to die.

"The only person who seems to be trying to do anything is the Mayor of New Orleans and that man is banging his head against a brick wall.

"The US can't rescue their own people better than they can rescue people in the Third World. They didn't seem to care about their own people, mainly for economic and social reasons because the people worst-affected were poor and black."