The religion thread.

[hbionic]

 

[Sgt PSN]

I don't get it.  How can that letter be from god if god admits that he doesn't exist? 

[General_Failure]

You gave up on the cop dream too soon.

[ice grillin you]

if hes still alive....i believe he will be 92....the pope is coming to philly in 2015

[SD]

So I loosely follow religion, I don't think Jesus's teachings are the problem, but the people who hide behind the bible to promote their own beliefs. To me Jesus's teachings in their purest form are good lessons to live by, but the idiots who follow his teachings have distorted them to a disgraceful level. I believe Jesus spent time in India where he learned or maybe taught Buddhism [some say he was called St. Issa due to some scripts which have never been recovered, maybe he was maybe he wasn't] Something I'll never understand is how Republicans align themselves with religion and the wealthy when it's apparent Jesus was for the poor and the sick. I read the NT and I come away with the impression that Jesus was a liberal.

Anyway, here are 10 quotes from Jesus which support my beliefs:

Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

'Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. 'Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Luke 4:16-19 When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:

'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour.'

Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 16:19-25 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luke 11:39-42 Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God

Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: "The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, 'What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?' Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, 'Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God."

Matthew 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Whether you're anti-religion or not is not the question here, the question is how does someone who is religious read these quotes then votes Republican? I've asked this question and have never received a straight answer from a Republican. They mix in some distorted quotes about Jesus not wanting people to get handouts or something similar even though the 10 quotes above are 100% in favor of the poor.

[Geowhizzer]

Some good points there, SD.

It's no secret here that I am the one with religious faith (not Mormon, as the board idiots like to proclaim).  My wife and I recently pulled our family out of the church we had attended since the birth of my daughter, partially because it was becoming increasingly conservative and outspoken about political issues under a new pastor that I was not comfortable with supporting with my tithes, or having my children indoctrinated with these beliefs. 

Over the past two years I was involved with a heavy-duty bible study (would probably be equal to a workload of a seminary class).  One of the funny things that happened was, every other person in the study became more and more unified in their opinions on the issues, while I became more and more convinced of nearly the opposite while doing the same study. 

One example:  We studied the Second Chapter of the book of Ruth where Ruth is invited to glean the fields of Boaz to feed her and her mother-in-law.  The pastor was trying to tie this example into welfare, going as far as to say that the Christian solution would be to eliminate welfare assistance altogether and allow generous Americans to allow the poor to collect scraps from our factories and fields to attain a living. 

I asked him if an reformed welfare program, one that emphasized (and required) education and/or training wouldn't be, on a societal level, much the same as the allowing someone to glean - and allow them to possibly climb themselves out of the necessity for such assistance.  He said no, it was government-run and would be counter to Christianity.  Then I asked if the earliest Christians did not band together to care for widows and orphans on a societal level (within the Christian communities of the Roman Empire, and between those communities as needs were expressed, as referenced in the Pauline Letters).  He said it wasn't the same thing, and went on to a new topic.

I usually consider myself a political moderate.  I can vote Democrat or Republican (I go for "best for the position," not that I am always right).  I seemed pretty damn liberal in this church towards the end of our attendance there.  The church's position towards Christianity was also trending hard towards the conservative – not fundamentalist, but closer to it than I want to raise my children under.

We started attending a United Methodist church in town.  I grew up in that church, and though it has more of the trappings that make me chuckle than the old church (the standing up for the reading of the Gospel, the ritualistic sayings after hymns and prayers and such), it is much more open and inviting to differing viewpoints than my old church had become.

[MDS]

they named a book after babe ruth?

[Sgt PSN]

Yes. I beleive the opening line from the Book of Ruth reads "Pitch unto me thine fastball and I shall crusheth it with my wooden staff."

[MDS]

does the book of gehrig just suddenly end without explanation, like it had some kind of....disease

[Sgt PSN]

It ends mid sentence, just like The Sopranos.

[Geowhizzer]

The book of Bonds has large headings, is surly in tone but lacks potency.

[Munson]

The Book of Todd reads like it was written by a 12 year old Mexican girl. It's often largely forgotten and deemed unimportant.

[Diomedes]

... One of the funny things that happened was, every other person in the study became more and more unified in their opinions on the issues, while I became more and more convinced of nearly the opposite while doing the same study....

Sounds to me like you're doing it right.

[Eagaholic]

So I loosely follow religion, I don't think Jesus's teachings are the problem, but the people who hide behind the bible to promote their own beliefs. To me Jesus's teachings in their purest form are good lessons to live by, but the idiots who follow his teachings have distorted them to a disgraceful level. I believe Jesus spent time in India where he learned or maybe taught Buddhism [some say he was called St. Issa due to some scripts which have never been recovered, maybe he was maybe he wasn't] Something I'll never understand is how Republicans align themselves with religion and the wealthy when it's apparent Jesus was for the poor and the sick. I read the NT and I come away with the impression that Jesus was a liberal.

Anyway, here are 10 quotes from Jesus which support my beliefs:

Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

'Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. 'Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Luke 4:16-19 When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:

'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour.'

Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 16:19-25 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luke 11:39-42 Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God

Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: "The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, 'What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?' Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, 'Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God."

Matthew 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Whether you're anti-religion or not is not the question here, the question is how does someone who is religious read these quotes then votes Republican? I've asked this question and have never received a straight answer from a Republican. They mix in some distorted quotes about Jesus not wanting people to get handouts or something similar even though the 10 quotes above are 100% in favor of the poor.

I think that one answer to your question SD is that people have a tendency to interpret things such as scripture to fit their own world view. People can generally find things in religious writings to, in their interpretation, support their point of view.

In the case of your examples, a religious conservative Republican could site numerous other verses (versus?) to justify their beliefs and put the above quote in a limited context. It is usually fruitless to use scripture to argue a point because one can always argue a counterpoint. At least in their own mind.

But it is a great question you bring up, and is at the root of the original divide between Protestantism and the pre-existing Catholicism. With the burgeoning new faith of Protestantism they rejected the prevailing view of "blessed are the poor." They said screw that, our new church is never going to get rich that way. They sacrificed the control of keeping people poor, primarily occupied in surviving and getting by, for a new world view that extolled the virtues of hard work, productivity and achievement as a means of salvation.

The cynical view holds that the idea was it being a lot easier for your church to get rich if your people work hard and get rich and tithe to you, than if your people are poor and tithe 10% of nothing to you. Especially if you don't have huge armies and political partners at your disposal to go forth and do you bidding.

So the Protestant (Puritan) work ethic - working for God - was introduced as a means to salvation, and sloth and laziness were reviled. 'Doing good works' such as feeding the poor took a back seat to building Cathedrals and infrastructure.

e.g.
2 Thessalonians 3:10
"For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat," and numerous other examples, even if not by Jesus, equating work and success with godliness and the poor, unproductive, always on IR loser with not making the best of their own means. - And probably here lies the antecedents of today's liberal vs conservative arguments, with a Republican view that in this land of opportunity the poor are leaches on society.

The cynical view would also hold that these quintessential teachings of Jesus (the Sermon on the Mount including the beatitudes -  blessed are the poor, the meek, humble and such, and turn the other cheek) were also manipulated as a means of The Man (or The Woman if she happened to be the presiding pope) keeping the people down and maintaining control. The ideal being if they are meek, docile and obedient they are saintly.

However, much of this was, as I said a manipulation. One difficulty is that the original teachings have been altered through so many translations (Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Ye Olde English) that by either necessity or intention the original meanings have often been changed or misunderstood.

For example, many have heard the quote "It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven." This seems to support the idea it is good to be poor and implies wealth leads to damnation.

However others contend this is a reference to a common metaphor of the time. Jerusalem was surrounded by a wall (as it is now) and there were large gates to enter. At night these gates were closed to protect against invaders and only a small door was left open for late travelers. That small door was called "the eye of the needle." So to enter, a merchant's camel had to kneel to crawl through, the idea simply being one had to be humble to enter the kingdom in wealth, not that the rich were damned. Others or course refute this saying there is no proof of such a gate.

So the point being, there is a large enough body of scripture and enough ambiguity of meaning and translation, and even enough of conflicting verses, that people can put their own spin and build a case around its interpretation, whether liberal or conservative, and it will generally suit their own predispositions.

I appreciate the rare people who pursue truth rather affirmation. Apparently Reggie White was such a person. At a later point in his life he learned Hebrew to better understand the Bible and was disillusioned with what he found - that there was a gulf between what he then came to understand as original teachings and an apparent bill of goods he was sold by the 'experts' who had previously taught him, and his views accordingly became less rigid.

In the end though conscience > scripture, which was only meant as a compass to point in a direction, not take over one's sensibilities.

[MDS]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/fashion/weddings/angela-sclafani-and-michael-olexa-vows.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

"its in gods hands now"

2 days later hes dead

go god go