Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Diomedes]

The current unemployment rate is around 8 percent, not ten.

[shorebird]

Yay, let's talk about the "illegals."

I actually know people who are affected by this farged up system every day of their lives.  I employ an illegal immigrant in my home part-time, and from time to time I work with several others.  Yes, literally digging ditches sometimes.  These are human being you supposed family-values conservatives are talking about.   

"Rules are rules, sorry."

That's what Conservatives have to say to a 22 year old high school (honors) grad who happened to have been brought to the U.S. illegally--a misdemeanor!--when he was a child.  No criminal record, excellent student, church goer, community service volunteer.  Part time student paying full price for classes at community college while working an ever changing series of under-the-table jobs in landscaping, painting, tree work, and roofing.  In Republican lingo, an "illegal," who is ruining America.

Conservatives say sorry kid, it's tough luck but rules are rules, so nevermind the contributions you are making, nevermind the relationships you have in our community, it's time for you to go back to Honduras, murder capital of South America.  Don't know anyone there?  Don't have a home there?  Don't really even speak the language?  Tough luck, rules are rules kid.  Should have thought of that when you broke 'em.

"They're stealing our jobs"

The immigrants aren't taking jobs away from anyone.  Born Americans are a bunch of entitled lazy bitches.  $9 an hour is beneath American laborers.  They'd rather get themselves on social security disability than work ten hard hours a day in the fields.  This is not opinion, facts are not subject to argument.  Alabama has plenty of unemployment and no one has filled the jobs vacated by immigrant labor, who fled a draconian anti-immigrant law.   It's also worth noting that even the two or three "real Americans" who do take these jobs...their productivity is vastly less, because although the work is simple, it is not easy, and a practiced hand picks tomatoes a hell of a lot faster than even an earnest, energetic n00b.

But in fact, every society has a group of people who are worthless lazy stupid pieces of crap.  These dead weights don't have any real ambition, don't want to work, and won't ever do much of anything to improve their station in any way.  Won't learn, won't save, won't work, won't do shtein. 

It is not, therefore, these people who come to America, who literally invest the life savings of entire families, life and limb, to come here to work.  We get the good ones.  And we need them.  Our own population of society-killing shteinbags is large and growing.  We need a counterbalance.   We need the labor and the sacrifice and the stable modest families.

I propose an exchange program:  for every immigrant worker who can somehow breach the borders and get in, we will kick out a piece of shtein good for nothing slacker American.  Instead of sending Augustino back to El Salvador, we'll give them DeJarious.   Instead of punting Julio back to Haiti, we'll give them Bobby.  Instead of banishing Maria and her three babies to Honduras, we'll put Crystal and her three babies on a non-stop to Toncontín.

Shore, if you got your way and all the illegals were deported, that would literally mean a kid I know who just got a full scholarship to Loyola after graduating 3rd in his class*, would be dropped off at an airport in Honduras.  He had no choice about coming here as a child.   Baltimore is home to this kid.  Do you know what life is like for human beings in Honduras?  I'm telling you that he's just a good kid from a fundamentally good family who got themselves out of hell.  And you'd send him back to it because of a misdemeanor?  Because...he should have told his mother, "no, this is illegal, I'm going back to Honduras?"   Because...I can't really comprehend why.  I find it unforgivably ignorant of you, really.

*Incidentally, at a private high school.  Which is to say, you didn't pay shtein for him to be educated.  Rich lefty Catholics picked up the tab.  As they are doing for his siblings.  Who are also kick ass students.  The little one though, the seven-year old, he was born here...so if you get your way, his family would either be torn apart with him staying here alone and his family going back without him, or you'd be sending a seven year old U.S. citizen to life in Honduras.

Obama was right to take action.  Unlike previous politicians, he is making things happen as he goes into the election.  Gay marriage, now this; two risky but decisive moves.   The conservatives scream "it's being done for politics," but because as even they will admit, Obama may not be helping himself at all with these decisions, their complaints are plainly weak.

I gave him a few bucks for the first time when he announced for gay marriage and I'll do it again now.  As a MD voter, my $25 is probably worth more than my vote.

No, no, no, NO! When have I ever said that illegals should be deported?? Never. Why is it I've said it seems like 100 times that I would like to see them legal, paying thier way like everyone else, but still, words continue to be put in my mouth?? Jesus Motherfarging Chirst! Just farging stop it already!

And Dio, if you think that your man would be legal, working for 9 bucks and hour and be ok with the witholding that would be coming out of his check, think again.

[Diomedes]

I know guys who come back each year with different names different socials work for the same company and don't have any problem with the witholding going out.  In other words, they are what you "real Americans" call "illegals" paying social security tax with no hope of ever getting that money.

[shorebird]

Well, I don't.

[shorebird]

I know guys who come back each year with different names different socials work for the same company and don't have any problem with the witholding going out.  In other words, they are illegals paying social security tax with no hope of ever getting that money. 

They apply for citizenship yet? Have they said they want to?

[Diomedes]

They have no shot at ever being citizens.   The U.S. doesn't welcome laborers from Mexico. 

[PhillyPhreak54]

Yay, let's talk about the "illegals."

I actually know people who are affected by this farged up system every day of their lives.  I employ an illegal immigrant in my home part-time, and from time to time I work with several others.  Yes, literally digging ditches sometimes.  These are human being you supposed family-values conservatives are talking about.   

"Rules are rules, sorry."

That's what Conservatives have to say to a 22 year old high school (honors) grad who happened to have been brought to the U.S. illegally--a misdemeanor!--when he was a child.  No criminal record, excellent student, church goer, community service volunteer.  Part time student paying full price for classes at community college while working an ever changing series of under-the-table jobs in landscaping, painting, tree work, and roofing.  In Republican lingo, an "illegal," who is ruining America.

Conservatives say sorry kid, it's tough luck but rules are rules, so nevermind the contributions you are making, nevermind the relationships you have in our community, it's time for you to go back to Honduras, murder capital of South America.  Don't know anyone there?  Don't have a home there?  Don't really even speak the language?  Tough luck, rules are rules kid.  Should have thought of that when you broke 'em.

"They're stealing our jobs"

The immigrants aren't taking jobs away from anyone.  Born Americans are a bunch of entitled lazy bitches.  $9 an hour is beneath American laborers.  They'd rather get themselves on social security disability than work ten hard hours a day in the fields.  This is not opinion, facts are not subject to argument.  Alabama has plenty of unemployment and no one has filled the jobs vacated by immigrant labor, who fled a draconian anti-immigrant law.   It's also worth noting that even the two or three "real Americans" who do take these jobs...their productivity is vastly less, because although the work is simple, it is not easy, and a practiced hand picks tomatoes a hell of a lot faster than even an earnest, energetic n00b.

But in fact, every society has a group of people who are worthless lazy stupid pieces of crap.  These dead weights don't have any real ambition, don't want to work, and won't ever do much of anything to improve their station in any way.  Won't learn, won't save, won't work, won't do shtein. 

It is not, therefore, these people who come to America, who literally invest the life savings of entire families, life and limb, to come here to work.  We get the good ones.  And we need them.  Our own population of society-killing shteinbags is large and growing.  We need a counterbalance.   We need the labor and the sacrifice and the stable modest families.

I propose an exchange program:  for every immigrant worker who can somehow breach the borders and get in, we will kick out a piece of shtein good for nothing slacker American.  Instead of sending Augustino back to El Salvador, we'll give them DeJarious.   Instead of punting Julio back to Haiti, we'll give them Bobby.  Instead of banishing Maria and her three babies to Honduras, we'll put Crystal and her three babies on a non-stop to Toncontín.

Shore, if you got your way and all the illegals were deported, that would literally mean a kid I know who just got a full scholarship to Loyola after graduating 3rd in his class*, would be dropped off at an airport in Honduras.  He had no choice about coming here as a child.   Baltimore is home to this kid.  Do you know what life is like for human beings in Honduras?  I'm telling you that he's just a good kid from a fundamentally good family who got themselves out of hell.  And you'd send him back to it because of a misdemeanor?  Because...he should have told his mother, "no, this is illegal, I'm going back to Honduras?"   Because...I can't really comprehend why.  I find it unforgivably ignorant of you, really.

*Incidentally, at a private high school.  Which is to say, you didn't pay shtein for him to be educated.  Rich lefty Catholics picked up the tab.  As they are doing for his siblings.  Who are also kick ass students.  The little one though, the seven-year old, he was born here...so if you get your way, his family would either be torn apart with him staying here alone and his family going back without him, or you'd be sending a seven year old U.S. citizen to life in Honduras.

Obama was right to take action.  Unlike previous politicians, he is making things happen as he goes into the election.  Gay marriage, now this; two risky but decisive moves.   The conservatives scream "it's being done for politics," but because as even they will admit, Obama may not be helping himself at all with these decisions, their complaints are plainly weak.

I gave him a few bucks for the first time when he announced for gay marriage and I'll do it again now.  As a MD voter, my $25 is probably worth more than my vote.

Rack it! Dio has knocked this bitch outta the park.

SLOW CLAP - start it up

[Munson]

Government wouldn't be paying for birth control, people's health insurance plans would.

Stimulus very very clearly saved private sector jobs. And in fact, sicne Obama took office, the private sector has gained jobs while the public sector has shed them. Google it.

5 years is a long way from 20. And if it takes longer then there might be a reason why. Just saying.

Munson, do you believe everything that you hear from CNN? When Obama signed the stimulus into law, the unemployment rate was 8.2%. It now stands at 8.2%, having peaked at 10.1% in October 2009. That tell you anything? Even with the estimate of 2 million jobs created or saved, they came at an average cost of $230.000 each or more, according to the CBO. Also, it's coming out now that the counting of the jobs was flawed, that possibly 30-40% of the jobs were part time, and many of the jobs created or saved have now come to an end. Most of the public works projects, like road repavings and bridge repairs, have been completed. Money given to states to keep teachers, fire fighters and police on the job has run out. Also, the country lost a lot more jobs than had been anticipated, between December of  '08' and April of '09', 3.8 million jobs were lost, and the recession has been estimated to have cost at total of 8.8 million lost jobs.  So really the stimulus was the most costly failure that any president of the U.S. has ever presided over.

edit, dio caught my mistake.

*sigh* we covered this literally 3 pages ago shore.

1. The stimulus was designed for an economy shrinking at a 4% rate. Turns out they didn't realize the economy was actually shrinking at an 8% rate. In other words, the stimulus didn't spend nearly enough money to create a significant dent in the recession.

2. You're once again proving my point for me....I said private sector jobs have risen since the recession under Obama, while public sector jobs (teachers, firefighters, cops, etc) have been shed.

3. The job of the stimulus isn't to create permanent jobs. The job of a stimulus is to keep people working during the worst parts of recessions/depressions to keep money flowing in the economy. Otherwise, the economy shrinks, the money flow is restricted, and the recession just gets worse until the business cycle turns around. Government spending, be it through jobs or social saftey nets, is not designed to stop or prevent these things. It's simply meant to cushion the blow for society's most vulnerable and create some capital flow so that the economy doesn't completely fall over the cliff. THat's econ 101, dude. Like, stuff they teach in high school economics class.

4. You keep talking about the unemployment numbers that Obama had as he came into office...what in the blue hell was he supposed to do in the first month he took office that was supposed to reverse a job loss rate of 800,000 per month?! Like seriously stop ignoring that point and just answer the damn question. You're acting like the jobs that were being shed by the recession were Obama's fault, when the recession was already in full gear and at it's peak when Obama took office. So what does the unemployment number that was a result of the recession have anything to do with Obama? (the 8.2% when he took office and the 10% peak number) Nearly every economist agrees that, had there been no stimulus, that 10% peak would have actually been a 12-13% peak....again, this is not some hidden talking point here, this is all easily googled information. Just do your best to find raw numbers instead of soemthing from the Heritage Foundation.

5. Between December of '08 (you know Bush was still president at this point, right?) and April of '09, 3.8 million (private sector) jobs were lost....And from after April '09 until now, 4 million (private sector) jobs have been added. Was Obama supposed to add more than that? You seem to know all the numbers of just how bad this recession was yet you think Obama should ahve done better than recovered all of the jobs that were lost by the recession.

6. Since reading words seems to be hard for oyu (or, rather, reading words past the bullshtein talking points), here's a few pretty lines on graphs to paint the picture for you.



7. I think up until this post I've been pretty civil with you, but your refusal to do any indepth research into the talking poitns your spewing is incredibly frustrating. I've tried to do a little of the research for you there, but I implore you to do some on your own because a civil discussion is had much easier if you stop using logical fallacies or flat out untruths in your arguments.

[hbionic]

Munson for congress?

[Sgt PSN]

No, no, no, NO! When have I ever said that illegals should be deported?? Never. Why is it I've said it seems like 100 times that I would like to see them legal, paying thier way like everyone else, but still, words continue to be put in my mouth?? Jesus Motherfarging Chirst! Just farging stop it already!

Funny, when Munson brought up the idea of making it easier for for immigrants to gain legal resident status, you started crying about the Constitution.  So even though you didn't directly say "deport them", the fact that you took a stance contradicting the idea of simplifying the process of making them legal is basically saying the same thing. 

Everything under the sun? No.

But if they're in our colleges or joining our armed forces, why shouldn't be be giving them a much easier, shorter way to achieve citizenship? That's a big problem with both our legal and illegal immigrants...they come here for the education, and then take their brainpower back home. That sort of brain drain is not good.

Because it's the faring LAW! You don't bend it, or follow just the ones that fit your agenda, or convenience.
While we're making it easier for the illegal immigrant, why don't we just flip the constitution upside down and rewrite it?

[rjs246]

I think up until this post I've been pretty civil with you, but your refusal to do any indepth research into the talking poitns your spewing is incredibly frustrating. I've tried to do a little of the research for you there, but I implore you to do some on your own because a civil discussion is had much easier if you stop using logical fallacies or flat out untruths in your arguments.

This is worth quoting because it describes my frustration with about 90% of the people who try to engage me about politics. They don't bother to do any research or educate themselves in any way. They have a single source of information (one news channel, one web site chat group, a parent, whatever) and they try to engage in intellectual arguments. It's infuriating and I have no patience for it, which is why I do most of my political posting in the no hippos section. What's the point of arguing with someone who has made up their mind based on one-sided information that reenforces their already-established worldview?

[ice grillin you]

good piece on just how looney the right has gone....i love the charlie hagel quote

This week, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, heretofore a pillar of the Republican Party, both for his successful governing record and family history as son and brother of presidents, came in for criticism from members of his own party. Americans for Tax Reform president Grover Norquist, who enforces party discipline on tax issues, attacked him for being a "yokel off the bus" who was echoing Democratic talking points.

Bush's sin? He suggested that the GOP had moved so far to the right and was so radically opposed to compromise of any kind that his father, George H.W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan couldn't be nominated by the party today. As Jeb Bush put it:

"Ronald Reagan would have, based on his record of finding accommodation, finding some degree of common ground, as would my dad — they would have a hard time if you define the Republican party — and I don't — as having an orthodoxy that doesn't allow for disagreement, doesn't allow for finding some common ground."

Conservatives might have ignored Bush's apostasy except that this was the second time in two weeks that he had strayed from the reservation. On June 1, he told the House Budget Committee that he would be willing to accept a budget deal that cut spending $10 for every $1 of tax increase. The GOP party line is that taxes must not be increased by so much as a penny for any reason. Bush also denounced the so-called pledge against raising taxes that virtually every Republican has signed, noting that he never signed it.

Norquist said that Bush had insulted Mitt Romney because he has taken the pledge.
I think Jeb Bush has the better of this argument. It is indisputable that Reagan was vastly more moderate, at least in terms of how he actually governed, than today's GOP. At the risk of being pedantic, here is a partial list of Reagan's actions that would have him expelled for treason to conservative principles if he were running for president today.

• As a Hollywood actor, Reagan had been the head of a labor union, the Screen Actors Guild, and was proud of the higher pay and benefits he negotiated for his members. As president, he praised labor unions, saying, "Collective bargaining...has played a major role in America's economic miracle. Unions represent some of the freest institutions in this land. There are few finer examples of participatory democracy to be found anywhere."

• Franklin D. Roosevelt was Reagan's political hero and he voted for him for president 4 times. As president, he said, "F. D. R. was an American giant, a leader who shaped, inspired, and led our people through perilous times."

• As governor of California, Reagan signed into law the largest state tax increase in history up to that time. It increased California taxes by a third, including an increase in the top income tax rate. There were other tax increases as well, which raised the top rate to 11 percent from 7 percent when he took office, a 57 percent increase.

• Also as governor, Reagan signed into law California's first law permitting legal abortion – at the behest of his two most conservative advisers, Ed Meese and Lyn Nofziger. On other social issues as well, Gov. Reagan was far more progressive than his image. For example, he authorized conjugal visits for prisoners for the first time in the state and broadened environmental protection.

• In 1981, Reagan proposed a large tax cut. But when deficits became a problem, he supported tax increases and signed 11 of them into law. Among them was the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982, the largest peacetime tax increase in American history.

• Reagan supported an increase in the capital gains tax to 28 percent from 20 percent as part of the Tax Reform Act of 1986.

• In 1986, Reagan supported an immigration reform that gave amnesty to 3 million illegal aliens. During the 1984 election, Reagan said, "I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots and who have lived here even though sometime back they may have entered illegally."

• At the Reykjavik Summit with Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev in 1986, Reagan, to the horror of his advisers, offered to abolish nuclear weapons. To their relief, Gorbachev declined the offer.

For these reasons, Barack Obama has often praised Reagan. Meanwhile, Republican leaders admit that Reagan would clearly be out of step with his party and would not be able to secure its presidential nomination today. Jeb Bush is not the only one.

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee: "Ronald Reagan would have a very difficult, if not impossible time being nominated in this atmosphere of the Republican Party."

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA): Reagan "would never be elected today in my opinion."
Other Republicans note Reagan's commitment to compromise and working with Democrats to find solutions to pressing national problems.

Former chairman of the Republican National CommitteeHaley Barbour: "Let me make sure that one thing is clear about Ronald Reagan's Republican Party: Reagan did not demand or expect everyone to agree with him on every issue. He wasn't a purist. Some candidates are vying to be the most conservative candidate, and some voters are seeking purity in their choice. Well, in politics purity is a dead-dog loser. You need unity. And purity is the enemy of unity."

Former Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE): "Reagan wouldn't identify with this party. There's a streak of intolerance in the Republican Party today that scares people. Intolerance is a very dangerous thing in a society because it always leads to a tragic ending. Ronald Reagan was never driven by ideology. He was a conservative but he was a practical conservative. He wanted limited government but he used government and he used it many times. And he would work with the other party."

I worked for Ronald Reagan and believe he was a great president. But he was not a radical who made extravagant claims or sought to destroy government, as most Republicans appear willing to do today. He believed in conservative governance and getting things done, and if bending on principle was necessary, then so be it. I think Republicans would be better off emulating the real Ronald Reagan and less demanding rigid adherence to unachievable principles.

[Hawk]

Shore it's not even worth arguing.   Have the people in this thread get their talking points and facts from the Ed Schultz show.   No matter how incompetent Obama has been, they'll live in their cloud of hypotheticals, claiming it would be worse without him.
Immigration isn't the issue... Circumventing congress is.

[ice grillin you]

except its not a hypothetical...it actually happened...apparently everyone lived thru it except you

2001 to 2008 was one billion times worse

oh and ed schultz is a complete buffoon

[SunMo]

it's half.   not have