U.S. Iraq war casualties reach new milestone

[Drunkmasterflex]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

I assume that is sarcasm. 

I can see how you would think that, but I'm being serious.  I don't think it's good for the brunt of death to be borne by the volunteers only when you're talking about killing and dying for country.  I especially don't think it's a good idea for so much of the battle to be put in the hands of corporations employing mercenaries at the public expense.  Basically, if the U.S. is gonna war, I think the whole nation should have a stake in it, not just the military class.  No one for example, from my former hot shot NY employer's corporation went to Iraq, for example.  Not one, in all these years.  Hell, none of their children.

Well I can agree to a point, but with as jacked up as the Army is right now with an all volunteer force, it would be that much worse if we were to conscript again.  Hell you can get away with doing drugs multiple times in the Army these days before getting kicked out.

[Drunkmasterflex]

p.s.  the mercenary death toll is somewhere around 800, almost all of whom are being paid (very well, unless they're from a third world country, in which case most of us make better money) by you and I under contract to the U.S. government, and operating under much less scrutiny than the soldiers

Yeah that whole scrutiny thing is screwing things up even more over there.

[tnt4philly]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

I assume that is sarcasm. 

I can see how you would think that, but I'm being serious.  I don't think it's good for the brunt of death to be borne by the volunteers only when you're talking about killing and dying for country.  I especially don't think it's a good idea for so much of the battle to be put in the hands of corporations employing mercenaries at the public expense.  Basically, if the U.S. is gonna war, I think the whole nation should have a stake in it, not just the military class.  No one for example, from my former hot shot NY employer's corporation went to Iraq, for example.  Not one, in all these years.  Hell, none of their children.

You make some good points for the drat, but I am not so sure I would have wanted to put my life in the hands of someone who did not want to be there. Not saying that all draftees would have been un-reliable, but I am sure many would have been pretty disgruntled

[Diomedes]

All the better reason to draft them.  If the reasons were good, they wouldn't be disgruntled, and you wouldn't be so wary of having them fighting beside you.  If the reasons for killing and dying are poor, then you will be made more uneasy and that's a good thing.  Good people are not eager for war.

[tnt4philly]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

I assume that is sarcasm. 

I can see how you would think that, but I'm being serious.  I don't think it's good for the brunt of death to be borne by the volunteers only when you're talking about killing and dying for country.  I especially don't think it's a good idea for so much of the battle to be put in the hands of corporations employing mercenaries at the public expense.  Basically, if the U.S. is gonna war, I think the whole nation should have a stake in it, not just the military class.  No one for example, from my former hot shot NY employer's corporation went to Iraq, for example.  Not one, in all these years.  Hell, none of their children.

Well I can agree to a point, but with as jacked up as the Army is right now with an all volunteer force, it would be that much worse if we were to conscript again.  Hell you can get away with doing drugs multiple times in the Army these days before getting kicked out.

That hardly makes the Army jacked up. The military as a whole is probably in the best shape when it comes to training an equipment than it has been in a long time. At least the PA National Guard is, which by the way, still has a zero percent tolerance for illegal drug use. We just had a guy get booted for popping hot for taking one of his wifes prescription meds.

[Drunkmasterflex]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

I assume that is sarcasm. 

I can see how you would think that, but I'm being serious.  I don't think it's good for the brunt of death to be borne by the volunteers only when you're talking about killing and dying for country.  I especially don't think it's a good idea for so much of the battle to be put in the hands of corporations employing mercenaries at the public expense.  Basically, if the U.S. is gonna war, I think the whole nation should have a stake in it, not just the military class.  No one for example, from my former hot shot NY employer's corporation went to Iraq, for example.  Not one, in all these years.  Hell, none of their children.

Well I can agree to a point, but with as jacked up as the Army is right now with an all volunteer force, it would be that much worse if we were to conscript again.  Hell you can get away with doing drugs multiple times in the Army these days before getting kicked out.

That hardly makes the Army jacked up. The military as a whole is probably in the best shape when it comes to training an equipment than it has been in a long time. At least the PA National Guard is, which by the way, still has a zero percent tolerance for illegal drug use. We just had a guy get booted for popping hot for taking one of his wifes prescription meds.

Comparing the National Guard and Regular Army is almost like comparing apples and oranges.  And while the Army may have good training and decent equipment, the discipline and organization is absolutely awful.  Add draftees to that mix and it compounds exponentially.

[tnt4philly]

All the better reason to draft them.  If the reasons were good, they wouldn't be disgruntled, and you wouldn't be so wary of having them fighting beside you.  If the reasons for killing and dying are poor, then you will be made more uneasy and that's a good thing.  Good people are not eager for war.

Well, the volunteer miltary has alot of good people, and very few are eager for war.

[tnt4philly]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

I assume that is sarcasm. 

I can see how you would think that, but I'm being serious.  I don't think it's good for the brunt of death to be borne by the volunteers only when you're talking about killing and dying for country.  I especially don't think it's a good idea for so much of the battle to be put in the hands of corporations employing mercenaries at the public expense.  Basically, if the U.S. is gonna war, I think the whole nation should have a stake in it, not just the military class.  No one for example, from my former hot shot NY employer's corporation went to Iraq, for example.  Not one, in all these years.  Hell, none of their children.

Well I can agree to a point, but with as jacked up as the Army is right now with an all volunteer force, it would be that much worse if we were to conscript again.  Hell you can get away with doing drugs multiple times in the Army these days before getting kicked out.

That hardly makes the Army jacked up. The military as a whole is probably in the best shape when it comes to training an equipment than it has been in a long time. At least the PA National Guard is, which by the way, still has a zero percent tolerance for illegal drug use. We just had a guy get booted for popping hot for taking one of his wifes prescription meds.

Comparing the National Guard and Regular Army is almost like comparing apples and oranges.  And while the Army may have good training and decent equipment, the discipline and organization is absolutely awful.  Add draftees to that mix and it compounds exponentially.

Well, except for being activated, I was never on active duty in the Army. However, the active duty troops that I worked with, and the ones we get coming into the guard do not show a lack of discipline. As an ex Navy guy, I actually think that most of them sweat the small crap sometimes. On the other hand, over tha past twnty plus years, I have seen the military get a little lax on some things. Some of the junior troops get away with alot of stuff that we never would have twenty years ago. Either way, when put to the test, the guy that walks around with his hands in his pockets performs just as well as the guy who constantly complains about it.

[Diomedes]

It's okay to omit nested quotes at this point, and just highlight the one to which you are responding.

[ice grillin you]

they dont want a draft....they wanna get rid of all the undesirables...eliminate the countrys poor people and uneducated...dont help them at home let them get killed over there...and stack chedda....how does it go again?...the rich get richer...

take a peek around....war built this

[tnt4philly]

they dont want a draft....they wanna get rid of all the undesirables...eliminate the countrys poor people and uneducated...dont help them at home let them get killed over there...and stack chedda....how does it go again?...the rich get richer...

take a peek around....war built this

What? The way I understand what you are saying is that you think the military is full of poor, undersirable, and uneducated people. Well, there are not too many rich people in the military, but you are way off on the rest.

[Diomedes]

U.S. casualties by war (active wars bolded)

382 - Persian Gulf War (1990-1991)
398 - Afgan War (2001-2007)
2,260 - War of 1812 (1812-1815)
2,446 - Spanish-American War (1898)
3,510 - Iraq War (2003-2007)
4,435 - Revolutionary War (1775-1783)
13,283 - Mexican War (1846-1848)
36,574 - Korean War (1950-1953)
58,200 - Vietnam War (1964-1975)
116,516 - WWI (1917-1918)
405,399 - WWII (1941-1945)
498,332 - Civil War (1861-1865)

approx. 900 more casualties before Iraq surpasses the Revolutionary War (oh, the irony).  at the current pace, that mark will be topped in about 9 or ten months.

War isn't working.

[DutchBird]

I think the U.S. made a big mistake by failing to reinstate the draft when this thing started by Bush Co.

Yeah, that would have made the war real popular.

It would have given you guys at least a chance to succeed.

Unfortunately, there were a few problems:

1. The upper political echelon wanted to fight a war on the cheap.

2. The upper echelon was never interested in 'liberating the Iraqi people' and 'giving them freedom.' If this happened, this would be a nice bonus. Unfortunately, this is the only argument defending the war that can be used publicly. The real reason can not (oil, read PNAC documents). Therefore they were not interested in doing what was necessary to achieve those goals.

3. Massive overestimation of the capabilities of the US and US military for the type of mission they would have to fight. As IIRC some European NATO officers said (of the record): The US army is good at destroying things. They are not good at rebuilding (including winning hearts and minds). So far Afghanistan and Iraq proved them right. I am not saying it is so much by a lack of effort by the men and women on the ground. It is a lack of training and lack of resources (material and men (battle fatigue)), that was predicted before the invasion. There is a reason why many other nations for this type of mission have a rotation schedule of 4 to 5 months (one of the lessons of the Srebrenica massacre).

4. As hinted at in the previous topic, a complete lack of capability (and interest) to perform the kind of mission that is Iraq and Afghanistan. An interview with a regimental commander in the 82nd Airborne in Northern Iraq stated in a Dutch newspaper was shocking. A few of the most shocking highlights:

• There had been nothing but a very short summary briefing about counter insurgency tactics/methods in preparation of the mission. When he asked why there were not any additional briefings/classes or training exercises he was told to shut up; his comments were dismissed as irrelevant
• He had to order the most basic books about counter insurgency methods through Amazon.com and pay for them himself. They were not (made) available to him through regular army channels.
• He had to go ask the British, Dutch, Australians, Italians, Spaniards and Japanese to learn about their methods of dealing with the insurgency when in Iraq. And he had to do it behind the backs of senior Command in Baghdad, Bahrain and DC, as they had told him to just simply follow orders. Orders that had not been working (sometimes were completely counterproductive) for the previous unit (IIRC 4th infantry or Marines) in the region.
• He succeeded in getting the area quiet and calmed down. Basically by committing insubordination

Problems with a lack of body armor, boots, and the Stryker are indicative as well.

5. A general unwillingness to learn from others with more experience. And an unhealthy belief in American superiority causing that.

6. Many senior officers in the military, and Congress were simply cowards if not incompetents. They let themselves be deceived by the propaganda spewed by the Bush administration post 9/11, or were to scared to speak up. In that respect they were no better than many of the German Wehrmacht officers who did nothing to against Hitler's orders to start WW II. They shielded themselves behind the 'I was following orders' mantra.  And yes, I consider my own Prime Minister, much of parliament and Tony Blair just as much a coward. It was frightening to observe how easily Bush & Co. turned the vast majority of Americans into sheep.

[ice grillin you]

did you just embolden a part of your own post?

[General_Failure]

Bolding is generally used for emphasis instead of quoting.