Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[rjs246]

Rewind 100 years and the EXACT same things can be said about the Irish. Rewind 60 years and it was the Italians. Read up. Or better yet, think before you post.

[ice grillin you]

yeah and it wasnt much more than 100 years ago that slavery was legal...sounds even to me

if youre black and 42 years or older you were alive when voting rights legislation didnt exists for blacks

blacks are still getting lynched TODAY

the same crime will get a black much more jailtime than a white

the fact that you would even bring up the "plight" of italians from 100 years ago is almost imcomprehensible and it clearly a way to make you feel less guilty about what your govt is doing to brown people today

[rjs246]

I know you'll never be convinced that everyone isn't racist, but you've got to be kidding with this shtein. I'm not bringing up 'the plight' of anyone. I'm talking about history and a very clearly defined historical pattern of crime and punishment that has EVERYTHING to do with financial standing and NOTHING to do with race. I win.

[ice grillin you]

ALL blacks werent allowed to vote not just poors ones

when the govt redistricts to eliminate blacks from being a factor in elections they redistrict ALL blacks not just poor ones

i totally agree that poor people are more apt to committ crimes be uneducated ect...and thats precisely why the govt ensures that blacks are poor at an astromically higher rate than whites

[rjs246]

Actually, I'll retract my 'I win' because the only way I would ever consider this a win of any sort would be if we resolved anything. But since you won't listen to reason, your mind will never be changed. I'd rather focus on talking about something that we can do something about. The sad truth is that erradicating poverty (or your sense of white guilt about slavery) is not possible, so let's talk about what can change.

Pay teachers more.

[MDS]

Going in circles is fun. You both suck. No one wins.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Well, it's not clear who wins, but Jews and/or Blacks lose.

[Diomedes]

I'm all for paying teachers more.  I just want to do so in a way that is fiscally responsible, that's all.

I hear this all the time.  Please review the U.S. budget for making war.  You want to bitch about big government and irresponsible spending, look to war rather than learning, you'll have better stats to support your argument I promise.

paying teachers more will do nothing in schools that DONT HAVE ENOUGH TEXTBOOKS FOR THE CHILDREN....

The teachers I know spend their own money to supplement school supplies.  If they had a raise, they certainly wouldn't stop doing that. 

[NGM]

I'm all for paying teachers more.  I just want to do so in a way that is fiscally responsible, that's all.

I hear this all the time.  Please review the U.S. budget for making war.  You want to bitch about big government and irresponsible spending, look to war rather than learning, you'll have better stats to support your argument I promise.

Military Industrial Complex dude.  Ike was one of the greatest democratic minds (form of govt. not party) this country has ever seen, and people don't even recognize it. 

[Rome]

Have you ever paid real estate taxes in your life, Dio?  I have for the last 20 years, so let me enlighten you on few things...

First - a large portion of my tax bill subsidizes the public school system in my county.  Again, I have no problem paying those taxes because I believe that we as a community must at the very least provide free and equal educational opportunities for its children.  I grew up in New Jersey, after all, and New Jersey had one of the finest public school systems in the world up until about 20 years ago.

Second - the fact is there are a lot of parents out there who simply don't give a shtein about their kids or their education, and until that mindset is changed in this country, the public schools and the kids who go there are going to be a mess, and no amount of money we can throw at the problem will change that.

Third - I've never met a teacher in my life that got into it because they were looking to get rich off the deal.  Most of the good ones I've met have an interest in teaching kids to enrich their lives and part of the trade-off is the zesty pay they receive.  I'm not saying they don't deserve a decent living.  Not by a long shot.  They absolutely should, and for the most part, I think they do.  Again, not a king's ransom but most teachers get into the profession for intrinsic reasons and not for financial gain.

In closing, I wish public schools could be palaces and teachers could be paid a king's ransom, but the fact is they're not and they never will be.  There's finite revenue sources and a huge number of children in public schools and most districts are stretched to the point of no return as it is.

[General_Failure]

Third - I've never met a teacher in my life that got into it because they were looking to get rich off the deal.  Most of the good ones I've met have an interest in teaching kids to enrich their lives and part of the trade-off is the zesty pay they receive.

Why did the bad ones get into it?

[Geowhizzer]

Here's one teacher's point of view about most of what's been said:

1.  More pay would be nice.  Very nice.  But (and this is just my view), I knew what I was signing up for, so I'm not overly hung up on salary.  I have a roof over my head and I'm not going hungry.

2.  The F-CAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test) is the satanic offspring of the Bush family.  At this point they test reading, writing, math and science, and a civics test is on the horizon.  A lot of social studies teachers have actually been clamoring for a test to be added so show "how important" social studies education is.  I actually dread the test being added, as it will erode the freedom I have in teaching American history. 

3.  I must admit to chafing a bit from those who talk of teachers "only working nine months."  Yes, I love my summer, and I usually choose to take my seven weeks to spend time with my family.  Except this summer I'm taking three weeks to work summer school (need money for the new baby) and another two for summer institute to work towards my recertification (need to renew my certification every five years, and you need "continuing education" credits that are nearly impossible to attain in large enough quantities during the school year.  Some of the inservice classes are paid (less than your hourly salary), but most are not.  During the school year, on top of the 8 hours per day, you add in time for planning at home, grading tests, papers, projects and the like, setting up your room for various activities (most teachers do not just straight lecture anymore), meeting parents at conferences, open houses and such.  During the school year, it's not unusual for me to put in nearly 55-60 hours per week.  Anything above the 40 hours in my contract are all unpaid (unless you are in an after-school activity, which is paid).  Again, I don't seek sympathy or "credit," just trying to share my outlook on things.  I love what I do and wouldn't change it for the world.

4.  I agree with Rome that parents make all the difference.  I believe (and excuse me if I lack modesty) that I am a damn good teacher, but I have run into parents that are not just indiffernet, but are actually hostile towards teachers.  I have had parents of "advanced" students that have advised me that I had not expect her daughter to do her homework and projects, because she had too many important activities she was invovled in and would not have the time to do all that "busy work."  She didn't like it when I advised her that I would be fine with that, as long as she didn't expect her daughter to pass.  I have parents that keep their children home 40-50 times per year to baby sit - or even for "company."  I have some students that excel in spite of their family background, and some that fail even with the benefit of involved parents, but good parenting (especially where both parents are actively involved in the best interests of the child) is much more of a factor than anything else, including what I can do in my classroom. 

5. That said, the teacher is still a major factor.  I am one of the strictest teachers in my school, but I also have among the fewest behavioral issues.  I try to be strict but fair, and I try to show every student that I care about them as an individual.  I try to model being prepared for every class and try to have tests and projects graded in a timely fashion to model the importance of meeting deadlines.  I am far from perfect, and I screw up on occasion - and when I do, I make a point of apologizing to the class.  I establish expectations, and stick to them (i.e. I do not accept late homework without a valid reason, such as family emergency, etc.). I give the student the freedom to express themselves as long as they do so respectfully.  I am fortunate to have a team of teachers (we group the core subjects together as a "team" with mainly the same students) that believe much the same as I do, and I believe we make a good core for the students, both as students and as individuals.

5.  This may not be popular to say, but there are cultural tendencies that come into play.  One thing I had to learn, is that if a Hispanic student looks down when he or she is being reprimanded, it wasn't a sign of disrespect.  I come from a background where I was taught to look the person in the eye when an authority figure was talking to you to show you were listening, and early in my career would get mad at the students when they kept looking down until I realized that it was cultural.  I teach a varitey of students from different backgrounds (mostly white and Hispanic, but also African-Americans and Haitians - who will be quick to tell you they're Haitian and NOT African-American). 

I am sure that there is more that I can't remember right now.

[Seabiscuit36]

Third - I've never met a teacher in my life that got into it because they were looking to get rich off the deal.  Most of the good ones I've met have an interest in teaching kids to enrich their lives and part of the trade-off is the zesty pay they receive.

Why did the bad ones get into it?

Exactly, the basis behind the No Child Left Behind is to reward the good, get rid of the bad.  But as usual its a flawed system put out there for votes. 

Dio, your right about paying out of pocket, my wife probably spends 1-2k per year on supplies, books, give aways for the kids.  She does not get reimbursed or even a tax break. 

[rjs246]

Thanks for chiming in, Geo. I don't think that anyone is arguing that parenting is anything other than the highest influence on children and that is completely reinforced by what you said. But another thing you said which strikes a chord is that you didn't get into it for the money. That's great and I have an infinite amount of respect for you and anyone else with that attitude, but you are in the minority as far as the general population goes. Most people try to make as much money as they can reasonably make in their professions and not everyone (or even most people) are good spirited enough to sacrifice for the greater good. Teachers do this every single day but they shouldn't be forced to, and people who whine about their taxes going up to help pay teachers more make me sick.

This country spends ungodly amounts of money on stupid, frivolous and dangerous shtein. If you're gonna piss and moan about your taxes, the government can simply take money from other programs and put it into education. Get your head out of your ass, Rome.

[Diomedes]

Have you ever paid real estate taxes in your life, Dio?  I have for the last 20 years, so let me enlighten you on few things...
First - a large portion of my tax bill subsidizes the public school system in my county.

I am aware of the idiotic tax structure.  It is irrelevant.  If we didn't spend so goddamned much on war, we could spend more on learning without increasing your tax burden.  It's a simple, patently true point, and the fact I have to spell it out for you is pathetic.

Second - the fact is there are a lot of parents out there who simply don't give a shtein about their kids or their education, and until that mindset is changed in this country, the public schools and the kids who go there are going to be a mess, and no amount of money we can throw at the problem will change that.

We know, you're a good parent, everyone else isn't.  Why should you pay for them.  Blah, blah blah.  You've said this six times already.  Move on.

Third - I've never met a teacher in my life that got into it because they were looking to get rich off the deal.  Most of the good ones I've met have an interest in teaching kids to enrich their lives and part of the trade-off is the zesty pay they receive.  I'm not saying they don't deserve a decent living.  Not by a long shot.  They absolutely should, and for the most part, I think they do.  Again, not a king's ransom but most teachers get into the profession for intrinsic reasons and not for financial gain.

It is a position of such great influence, power, and importance, that the fact we pay it so little is comic.  People like you want the best teacher, who are all pure as the driven snow, and smart as Archimedes, to accept the pay of a city dwelling secretary.  farg that. They should be very well paid.  They should attract the best college graduates.  The children should have Harvard educated people teaching them, because goddamnit when they go out in the world the people who are trying to get their money, their services as an employee, their everything, have harvard educated people on their side.    Incidentally, cops and firefighters should also get drastic pay increases.  Earning commensurate with value to society, and all that. 

The money could be found if we wanted to do it.  Or do you disagree that better money equals better workers?  Because that's a whole nother issue.