See ya Tookie

[ice grillin you]

You're either for state-sanctioned vengeance killing or against it

It burns when I pee

[Philly_Crew]

The money isn't the issue, I think it's been clearly shown that enforcing the death penalty is way more expensive than life in prison.

You're either for state-sanctioned vengeance killing or against it.

Actually I'm for justice.  You can cry about the rights and freedoms of the killers and rapists all you want, to me they are getting what they deserve.  I'm against giving the criminals a better life than probably half the world enjoys.

[Diomedes]

Because there are so many people in this thread fretting over the rights and freedoms of killers and rapists.  Look, genius:  When you have this freedom thing, and these humans rights, you have to protect them for even the worst in order to guarantee them to the everyone else.  I know it's a tough concept, because the Vengeance Boner saps all the blood from the brain, but someday I hope you'll get it.

I know it's a real drag to some of you, but the price of civilization is that, even when someone deserves it, we don't get uncivilized on their asses.  We stick to due process and rule of law, and thereby protect ourselves from being abused by our government.

[Rome]

Agreeing completely with Dio on anything makes me truly ill but there it is...

[JTrotter Fan]

Genius 

[Philly_Crew]

When you have this freedom thing, and these humans rights, you have to protect them for even the worst in order to guarantee them to the everyone else.

He had his due process and the rule of law is that he dies.  I don't think the four victims have this freedom thing and these human rights.  In fact, they were innocently stripped of it by the scumbag.

[Feva]

Agreeing completely with Dio on anything makes me truly ill but there it is...

Tell me about it.  Let's kill him so we don't have to worry about ever agreeing with him again.

[Diomedes]

He had his due process and the rule of law is that he dies.

And someday, maybe the government will kill you.  Legally.  According to whatever laws obtain at that time, made by whatever corrupt lawmakers were in power when the laws were drafted, and ignored by citizens who figure, like you, that if the government wants to kill someone, then they must have good reason.  So someday, maybe the government will kill you.  Or your punk kid cousin, who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  "But that would never happen," you'll say.  Uh huh.  Nevermind that people have been proven innocent and released from death row, or that good evidence exists to support the assertion that innocent people have been executed: so long as the government executes citizens, it might happen.  That's a fact.
What your argument boils down to is that you trust the government implicitly when it comes to dealing death.  You think it would never happen to you, or to anyone who didn't deserve it.  I wonder why?  Do you have some kind of in, so you KNOW they'll never kill you--only the other ones?  Why is it that when it comes to the death penalty, people who are otherwise highly critical of government all of a sudden become certain that the state is infallible?  They bitch and moan about how the government can't do anything right--from delivering the mail to developing good foreign policy--but are convinced that it never fails in executing criminal citizens.  There is a inconsistent logic at work there.

My logic IS consistent: if the state is not allowed to execute citizens, the state will never kill an innocent citizen.

I don't think the four victims have this freedom thing and these human rights. In fact, they were innocently stripped of it by the scumbag.

And here is what cripples the logic: emotion.  People can't get over the bad man, they want to kill him.  Hurt him.  Take it out on him.  Here, you make an argument based on how hideous the individual crime was, and how faultless the victims were.  That's not at issue.  The guy is a dirtbag, and the victims were innocent.  We all agree on that point.  We would all like to kill him.  But the crime is done, the victims are dead, and there's nothing we can do about it.  The state didn't deprive these people of their rights and the government policy didn't kill these people; they were killed by an individual man.  We can't control the individual man, we can control the state.

It's a nifty trick, this death penalty.  What it does is offer people the satisfaction of revenge killing, for the piddling trade-off that the state gets to decide when, how, and whether to kill you.  They say, you can have your revenge on this man for killing these people.  The government will kill him for you.  But first, you have to agree that, should the state decide to kill you, that's okay.  Surrender your control over the government, and in return, we'll give you some righteous material to look at while you stroke your Vengeance Boner. 

That's the deal.  Instead of limiting the system so that the government cannot kill you or any other innocent person, you'll risk that right for the meagre emotional payoff of executing criminals.  That's quite a trade.  A lot of people are fine with that trade.  I'm not.

[LBIggle]

there's alot of gray area in capitol punishment sure.  there's gray area in pretty much everything.  but the bottom line is it isn't solely for bloodthirsty, human rights violating, revenge induced shenanigans.  the families of the victims deserve to have some consolation for their loses.  if putting some scumbag to death is the way to do it.. well darn.  i wont lose any sleep over it.

also you need the death penalty around to strike the fear of god in some scumbags.  maybe it'll make some "people" think twice about the crime their about to commit.  other times.. making a deal to get out of the death penalty might retrieve the bodies of a loved one or other important information on an unsolved crime.

hey the guy might be innocent.  well shtein. im sure an innocent guy has never spent years and years and years in jail.  probably gettin anal love every day in the shower.  having his whole life ruined.  everyone he knows not even acknowledging he's alive due the the crime he didn't commit.  then oh whoops sorry dude, we made a mistake, off you go. taking half his life or more instead of just putting him out of his misery.. that's not just as bad?

oh wait never mind they have internet connections and 3 squares.  unlike millions of people below the poverty line.  but at least the moneys being put to good use. save the criminals.

[Wingspan]

What your argument boils down to is that you trust the government implicitly when it comes to dealing death.  You think it would never happen to you, or to anyone who didn't deserve it.  I wonder why?  Do you have some kind of in, so you KNOW they'll never kill you--only the other ones?  Why is it that when it comes to the death penalty, people who are otherwise highly critical of government all of a sudden become certain that the state is infallible?  They bitch and moan about how the government can't do anything right--from delivering the mail to developing good foreign policy--but are convinced that it never fails in executing criminal citizens.  There is a inconsistent logic at work there.

except in most cases it is not the government doing this, it is a jury of peers making this decision not elected officials.

[JTrotter Fan]

Wah!  I hate the government.  Wah!

[Butchers Bill]

And here is what cripples the logic: emotion.  People can't get over the bad man, they want to kill him.  Hurt him.  Take it out on him. 

Actually its about making society safer, not vengence.  If it were strictly about vengence the families of the victims would be allowed to decide the punishment after sentencing.  In fact, the vicitms families are often called upon in the sentencing phase of the trial to offer their opinions and testimony.  Sometimes for death, sometimes against.

You also seem to forget that even when locked up for life there are people that have to guard these animals.  You dismiss the single confinement agruement because they have nothing to lose...neither do people with life without parole.

[rjs246]

I know you guys love talking in circles but I'm going to add my input.

The system is bullshtein. So many more minorities have been put to death than have white people that anyone who looks at the stats can't help but be disgusted. Our penal system claims to have a goal of rehabilitation but this is clearly also bullshtein as people on this very board to who have worked in or known those who have worked in the system say it doesn't rehabilitate a damn thing.

So that brings us to this conclusion. Our penal system is a racist institution that shouldn't have the right to kill people because it isn't just in any way.

Having said that, I'm all for the death penalty because I like revenge. If anyone harmed me or the people I love I would want them dead with a nice steamy rjs turd shoved in their throat for effect.

So as a selfish prick, hooray for the death penalty! As an intelligent human being, it has no place in our society at all and is the most unbelieveably horrific act that we as a people have ever taken part in.

Want to hear my take on abortion? Gun control? I can talk out of both sides of my mouth about anything. Anything, I say!

[Butchers Bill]

The system is bullshtein. So many more minorities have been put to death than have white people that anyone who looks at the stats can't help but be disgusted.

The lesson for today: People are still influenced by the PC media and educators in the US.



http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/drracetab.htm

[JTrotter Fan]

He wasn't talkin about how many white people were on death row.  He was talkin about how many were actually executed.