Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Diomedes]

so where is the common ground between people who believe in the scientific method, and those who don't?  do you argue that barbarians and civilized peoples have some kind of common ground?

is there common ground between Isis and the West?  Between those who think gays should be stoned and those who think maybe not?

I think that's the degree of separation we are talking about in the United States.

I don't think the principles of mediation apply just as well to disputes of fundamantal nature as they do to a business disagreement, you know?

[Eagaholic]

I would imagine common ground between barbarians and civilized peoples is that they both want to survive and have their basic life needs met, and see that threatened. Scientific method v others - they each don't want to see their ideals and beliefs trampled on and have something else forced on them, etc. There is often an Aha! breakthrough moment when each side realizes they are dependent on the other for resolution, when that common ground is realized. But as a culture we aren't there yet, we'd rather have our reality teevee shtein flinging. There are deal breakers like when one party doesn't negotiate in good faith but since we were originally talking about our government representation I think these general principles still apply.

[Sgt PSN]

As far as IGY, he has said more than once on this board alone - and I quote directly - "I hate white people."

This is a pretty obtuse way of interpreting that.  White people = White America = The Establishment = A system that embraces racism, classism, homophobes, islamaphobes, and generally despises anything that isn't white, pure, and in love with guns, Jesus, and oil.

This is like when people counter BLM by saying that all lives matter. They're totally missing the point. The real meaning of BLM is that Black Lives Matter, Too.  Instead of countering by saying ALM, try asking a black dude why he feels like his life doesn't matter.

[Eagaholic]

Ok, I think I get it now. So if a white guy says "I hate black people," then he's really saying black people = urban black people = hip hop culture = glorification of a culture of violent crime, murder, misogyny. So really "I hate black people" = don't like innocent people murdered. Cool.

[Sgt PSN]

Yes, because there's definitely not 400 years of precedent of what it means to say I hate black people.

[Eagaholic]

Sarge, that's a false equivalency. You can't say that one group, for example, is racist in making what is widely viewed as disparaging comments toward another, while excusing the other's intolerance for the same thing. Racism is racism and it's very essence is singling out one group (or groups) over another, either as justifying themselves as an exception (eg we're the master race; we have the one true religion and must convert everyone else to it for their own good) or making another the rightful object of intolerance. That thinking only perpetuates the divide rather than build bridges. Now if you want to argue that the largely disproportionate strife blacks have suffered compared to "privileged" whites, I can agree with that, but it's a different point.   

[PhillyPhreak54]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/01/nyregion/bridge-trial-focuses-on-christies-political-tactics.html?_r=0&referer=https://t.co/iJNdqreIiu

Mother of god this is appalling

Christie was going to use 9/11 artifacts in exchange for endorsements

[Sgt PSN]

Sarge, that's a false equivalency. You can't say that one group, for example, is racist in making what is widely viewed as disparaging comments toward another, while excusing the other's intolerance for the same thing. Racism is racism and it's very essence is singling out one group (or groups) over another, either as justifying themselves as an exception (eg we're the master race; we have the one true religion and must convert everyone else to it for their own good) or making another the rightful object of intolerance. That thinking only perpetuates the divide rather than build bridges. Now if you want to argue that the largely disproportionate strife blacks have suffered compared to "privileged" whites, I can agree with that, but it's a different point.   

Actually, that's exactly the point.

[Eagaholic]

So you agree with me then. I knew you'd come around, Sarge.

[Rome]

I want nothing in common with Trump supporters.  I have to coexist with them but I really wish I didn't.  And I'm sure they feel the same way about me.  And everyone here too especially those of you who are weak enough to believe they can be reasoned with.   THEY CANT.

[Sgt PSN]

So you agree with me then. I knew you'd come around, Sarge.

I haven't come around to anything.  I've been in the same spot the whole time.  If you're thinking that I agree with this:

Ok, I think I get it now. So if a white guy says "I hate black people," then he's really saying black people = urban black people = hip hop culture = glorification of a culture of violent crime, murder, misogyny. So really "I hate black people" = don't like innocent people murdered. Cool.

then you couldn't be more wrong. 

[Munson]

Yeah, "racism is racism" is not correct. "Racism" vs white people doesn't have the added weight of institutions and structures that, in the past, were built on the backs of dead black bodies, and in present day exist in ways that are meant to criminalize being black....and also often result in dead black bodies.

[Sgt PSN]

Very well stated.

[Eagaholic]

So you agree with me then. I knew you'd come around, Sarge.

I haven't come around to anything.  I've been in the same spot the whole time.  If you're thinking that I agree with this:

Ok, I think I get it now. So if a white guy says "I hate black people," then he's really saying black people = urban black people = hip hop culture = glorification of a culture of violent crime, murder, misogyny. So really "I hate black people" = don't like innocent people murdered. Cool.

then you couldn't be more wrong. 

When I said you agree with me and would come around I was joking, just a way to wrap up a debate that seemed to run its course.

And of course I don't expect you to agree with the above quote any more than I do. I was simply drawing a parallel between your analogy and mine, not stating something that is accurate or true in any way, quite the opposite.

As for the double standard of racism being/not being racism we'll just disagree on that one too,  although, as I'd said, it is a matter of degree (i.e. the disparity in the difficulties minorities have faced v white people). The mentality that one is ok and one isn't alienates and perpetuates antagonism among people rather than bringing them together. I don't see how that can not be true.

[Diomedes]

I don't think anyone disputes that racism can run in any direction, and that it's not a good thing..  It's not an American invention, afterall.  But the racism that matters here, is not the few white dudes who have been unfairly treated when they are in the minority in some very specific situation.  I'm a white dude in a black city, I'd been called things, threatened.  Of course it's racist and not right, and all that...but in the face of the suffering endured by black people in the Unites States, one can't honorably raise the alarm over the racism that a few white people are victimized by.