07/08 Phillies Offseason Thread

[Wingspan]

PS: LOL at Myers >>> Lidge as a closer. 

Why? It's true.

Lidge hasnt been all that great since he was completely shellshocked in the 2005 Playoffs.

And the 2007 numbers clearly show that Myers was the better closer.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

what ridiculous is entertaining the notion that the phillies after just having won their division would sit on their asses and wait for mike farging costanzo to arrive and maybe be a player in three years rather than try to improve a position of need right now is sickening

thats what the royals and pirates do

To be fair to our friend IGY, he never said Costanzo didn't have potential.


Although, he was obviously wrong about them expecting Costanzo would be ready in 3 years to take over.

[ice grillin you]

Less than 2 days ago, he was garbage that might be here in 2010.  Now he's the 3B of the future and has value?

please find where i ever said he was anythig much less garbage...and he was the 3b of the future...whether he became that or not only time will tell

i have no clue as to what he will develop into...my post was addressing the fact that the phillies just made the playoffs...and they arent in a position where they should be waiting around for a kid to develop in a few years to fill a big need position...they should go out and imporve it now...if constanzo had become a player in 2010 so be it...they are position to win right farging now

[ice grillin you]

lidge vs myers as a closer is a toss up....both have issues upstairs both have great stuff...both might or might not be a full time closer

but i dont think thats the point here...the point is more along the lines of myers > any starter they could have gotten

[Rome]

PS: LOL at Myers >>> Lidge as a closer. 

Why? It's true.

Lidge hasnt been all that great since he was completely shellshocked in the 2005 Playoffs.

And the 2007 numbers clearly show that Myers was the better closer.

And what do the 2003, 2004, 2005, & 2006 numbers show?  Oh, that's right - they don't - because Myers was being used in his natural position as a starter.

Lidge has a PROVEN track record as a closer in the Major Leagues whereas Myers does not.  Myers saved 21 games last year, that's true, but he also had 3 blown saves, a major injury that was caused by him over-throwing in a critical situation in relief, as well as four other appearances where he lost games in relief that weren't outright save opportunities.

Myers does not have the mentality to be a closer.  He does, however, have the stuff to be a good starting pitcher because if he gets hammered during one start he has five days to get over it and come back strong the next time out.

[BigEd76]

i have no clue as to what he will develop into...my post was addressing the fact that the phillies just made the playoffs...and they arent in a position where they should be waiting around for a kid to develop in a few years to fill a big need position...they should go out and imporve it now...if constanzo had become a player in 2010 so be it...they are position to win right farging now

and I'll agree with you on that.  Costanzo is nowhere near the potential that a Wright, Zimmerman, Braun, Stewart or Fields had, where you only needed 1 year until they were ready to take over long term, so I'm still holding out hope (yeah, I'm dumb) that they'll get a veteran with a long-term deal until they're ready to groom someone else.  Glaus, Tejada, Mora, Crede, whatever....anything is an upgrade from Helms...

[BigEd76]

More good news: Romero close to re-signing

[Wingspan]

PS: LOL at Myers >>> Lidge as a closer. 

Why? It's true.

Lidge hasnt been all that great since he was completely shellshocked in the 2005 Playoffs.

And the 2007 numbers clearly show that Myers was the better closer.

And what do the 2003, 2004, 2005, & 2006 numbers show?  Oh, that's right - they don't - because Myers was being used in his natural position as a starter.

Lidge has a PROVEN track record as a closer in the Major Leagues whereas Myers does not.  Myers saved 21 games last year, that's true, but he also had 3 blown saves, a major injury that was caused by him over-throwing in a critical situation in relief, as well as four other appearances where he lost games in relief that weren't outright save opportunities.

Myers does not have the mentality to be a closer.  He does, however, have the stuff to be a good starting pitcher because if he gets hammered during one start he has five days to get over it and come back strong the next time out.

Lidge's 2006's numbers don't show anything that will win you this agrument. His 2004 and 05 seasons he was top knoch.

Lidge at 19 saves last season, with 8 blown saves and a higher ERA than myers.

I hope Lidge goes back to his form from 3 seasons ago...but I dont see it especially since his problem has been giving up HRs the last two seasons.

And you do realize that on 10/1/07 he had knee surgery for torn cartilidge?

This was a dumb move.

[Rome]

The Phillies gave up garbage in Geary, an unknown in Costanza and at best a fourth outfielder in Bourn.

In return they got a solid utility infielder and a proven closer who had a tough year last year.  As a result of the trade they also got a #2 starting pitcher in Myers.

But sure, it's a dumb move.  Definitely dumb.

[ice grillin you]

so bourn as a fourth outfielder is nothing but bruntlett is "solid"?

without bourn you dont get lidge


i think both sides are spinning this thing...i would say its a good move with the potential for disaster

right now you cant say its a great move and you cant say its a dumb move

[Wingspan]

The Phillies gave up garbage in Geary, an unknown in Costanza and at best a fourth outfielder in Bourn.

In return they got a solid utility infielder and a proven closer who had a tough year last year.  As a result of the trade they also got a #2 starting pitcher in Myers.

But sure, it's a dumb move.  Definitely dumb.

Are you that dense?

"a proven closer who had a tough year last year"

He's been bad for 2 seasons now...and got rocked out of the park in the playoffs in 2005. Coming off of major knee surgery, to boot.

This is no different than the Freddy Garcia trade...sure it could work...but everyone, including the phils are ingnoring the fact that this guy is damaged goods, and you're expecting him to replace a closer that just played a major part in getthing them to the playoffs.

Go get the reaction of Astro's fans...they are THRILLED that this guy is gone.

Who gives a shtein about Bourne, Costanzo, and Geary other than you just traded them for damaged goods to move your already solid closer to the rotation where he will be no better than a .500 4.5-5.00 era pitcher??? Like he was before moving to the pen. (Myers already said he was pissed at the move back to the rotation...that should work out great).

[ice grillin you]

(Myers already said he was pissed at the move back to the rotation...that should work out great).

this is easily my biggest concern with the trade

[Rome]

Phils get creative to land closer, starter

Ken Rosenthal

FOXSports.com, Updated 11 hours ago    

ORLANDO, Fla. - This is the kind of trade you might see frequently this off-season — a burst of creativity inspired by the lack of quality starting pitching on the free-agent market.

The Phillies not only acquired closer Brad Lidge and infielder Eric Bruntlett from the Astros on Wednesday night, but also regained right-hander Brett Myers as a starting pitcher.

Myers was arguably better as a closer than he was as a starter, but that's not the point. No, the point is that Myers is a better starter than Carlos Silva and Kyle Lohse, both of whom might command free-agent contracts of at least four years and $10 million per season.

Yes, Lidge is a risk, particularly in hitter-friendly Citizens Bank Park. The Phillies will pay him at least $6 million and control him for only one season. But as one scout said, "You can count on two fingers guys who have better stuff."

That might be an exaggeration, but Tom Gordon will set up for Lidge, and if the Phillies re-sign free-agent left-hander J.C. Romero, the back of their bullpen should be formidable. With no further improvements, their rotation — Myers plus lefties Cole Hamels and Jamie Moyer and righties Kyle Kendrick and Adam Eaton — could be above-average. And Bruntlett should prove a useful part, playing infield and outfield and offering more versatility than the departed Abraham Nunez.

Put it all together, and the trade at first glance appears lopsided in the Phillies' favor. All they gave up was Michael Bourn, a speedy center fielder who has yet to prove he can hit; right-hander Geoff Geary, a middle-inning reliever who will earn more than $1 million next season; and Class AA third baseman Mike Costanzo, whose stat line features plentiful amounts of home runs, strikeouts and errors.

Of course, Phillies GM Pat Gillick appeared to get an even bigger steal a year ago when he acquired right-hander Freddy Garcia from the White Sox for right-hander Gavin Floyd and lefty Gio Gonzalez — and Garcia made only 11 starts before suffering a shoulder injury that required season-ending surgery.

For the Phillies, the trade will be a success if Lidge re-establishes himself as an elite closer. The Astros, at the very least, created payroll flexibility for the acquisition of more pitching and a second baseman who can hit No. 2 behind Bourn — Luis Castillo, Kaz Matsui or Tadahito Iguchi come to mind. If Bourn can post a .350 on-base percentage, the Astros will be set in center for the next five years.

The question is whether Bourn can develop into that type of player. The Phillies, bracing for the loss of free-agent center fielder Aaron Rowand, didn't view Bourn as a regular — at least not one who could crack their projected outfield of Pat Burrell, Shane Victorino and Jayson Werth. But Astros GM Ed Wade, who drafted all three players in the trade during his tenure with the Phillies, views Bourn as a top-of-the-order catalyst with base-stealing ability.

The Astros had numerous options in center, from free agents such as Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones to trade possibilities such as Coco Crisp and Rocco Baldelli.

The Phillies had far fewer options in their quest to add pitching. They couldn't count on trading for a quality starter. They couldn't sign one at a reasonable price. Considering the shortage of pitching throughout the industry, acquiring Lidge and moving Myers back to the rotation qualifies as a coup.

Rosenthal likes the trade.  He's dumb too, I guess?

[rjs246]

You're all dumb.

[Rome]

You're all dumb.

Link?