Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[mpmcgraw]

The atomic bombs saved lives. 

More people died in one night of firebombing Tokyo than in the atomic bombings. 

Anyone none of those things have anything to do with this.  The only thing it shows is your lack of critical thinking skills.

What evidence is there that it provided valuable information and or saved lives?

So murdering civilians is ok as long as it saves American lives?  Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. 

And hiroshima saved lives on both sides.  Are you educated at all?

Do you realize the Japanese had 5,000 planes in reserve on their homeland with only enough fuel to make it on a kamikaze run?

It stopped the fire bombings which killed FAR more than the atomic bombings.  Please don't talk about something you know nothing about and try to bend it to fit your agenda.

[bowzer]

Oh the people who some want to be prosecuted said it was an effective national defense measure?  That's shocking.

shtein.. they should have consulted you, since you are obviously well versed in intelligence gathering.
These guys saved lives... at the expense of the mastermind of 9/11.  

How about the liberal uproar when they threatened to kill his family if another attack happened in the USA?

The guy is one of the biggest scumbags on the face of the earth, he should be on a constant rotation of waterboarding and sleep deprivation for all I care.

[mpmcgraw]

Yea let's play right into his hand.  Let's remove what makes us better than them.  

It's not like they did this to push along the further radicalization of islam and start a holy war or anything.

wait...

[bowzer]

The atomic bombs saved lives. 

More people died in one night of firebombing Tokyo than in the atomic bombings. 

Anyone none of those things have anything to do with this.  The only thing it shows is your lack of critical thinking skills.

What evidence is there that it provided valuable information and or saved lives?

So murdering civilians is ok as long as it saves American lives?  Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. 

And hiroshima saved lives on both sides.  Are you educated at all?

Do you realize the Japanese had 5,000 planes in reserve on their homeland with only enough fuel to make it on a kamikaze run?

It stopped the fire bombings which killed FAR more than the atomic bombings.  Please don't talk about something you know nothing about and try to bend it to fit your agenda.

I know plenty about the subject.  Some historians argued it saved lives, other argue the opposite.  So please.. get a clue.  Additionally, like I said, it's ok to target civilian epicenters as long as it saves lives?  What about Dresden??  

shtein happens in war... not always ethically acceptable, but you can't view in the same light as you'd view it under peaceful circumstances.  

[bowzer]

Yea let's play right into his hand.  Let's remove what makes us better than them.  

It's not like they did this to push along the further radicalization of islam and start a holy war or anything.

wait...

Yes because waterboarding is the primary recruiting tool of Al Qaeda?  Not the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq... support of Israel, etc.

[Diomedes]

Torture is illegal, ineffective, and un-American.  The only people who disagree with that are ignorant--millions and millions of Americans don't think about it, don't care, just want a new shiny thing--or they suckle at the Bush/Cheney/Palin teat, in which case torture helped us find the WMDs in Iraq, U.S.A!! U.S.A.!U.S.A!!

What to do about the fact that we tortured people under Bush/Cheney is tricky.  In short, we have to live by the principle that no one is above the law, or else finally surrender the moral high ground we have claimed for so long.  On the other hand, we need to move ahead and deal with the issues we face today; investigating the crimes of the recent past will certainly handicap efforts to address all manner of current problems.  It's bad enough dealing with an obstructionist right wing on health care and financial reform, can you imagine the hissy fit they would throw if we actually tried to hold people accountable for shteinting all over American values?  Not to mention the democrats who knew and did nothing about it?  Any chance of progress against our several gargantuan problems would wither on the vine in the political firestorm that would occur if we tried to administer justice according to our constitution and values.

I've settled out my position:
I think we've already been exposed as the great hypocrite nation anyway, leaving our reputation as a fair just and humane country in a state of long term (if not permanent) disgrace, so the best solution is to stop all the illegal and shady shtein Bush Cheney trademarked--something Obama has not gone far enough towards doing at all--and let history (or even a later administration) be the judge of the criminal policies of the Bush administration.

[bowzer]

Torture is illegal, ineffective, and un-American.  The only people who disagree with that are ignorant--millions and millions of Americans don't think about it, don't care, just want a new shiny thing--or they suckle at the Bush/Cheney/Palin teat, in which case torture helped us find the WMDs in Iraq, U.S.A!! U.S.A.!U.S.A!!

What to do about the fact that we tortured people under Bush/Cheney is tricky.  In short, we have to live by the principle that no one is above the law, or else finally surrender the moral high ground we have claimed for so long.  On the other hand, we need to move ahead and deal with the issues we face today; investigating the crimes of the recent past will certainly handicap efforts to address all manner of current problems.  It's bad enough dealing with an obstructionist right wing on health care and financial reform, can you imagine the hissy fit they would throw if we actually tried to hold people accountable for shteinting all over American values?  Not to mention the democrats who knew and did nothing about it?  Any chance of progress against our several gargantuan problems would wither on the vine in the political firestorm that would occur if we tried to administer justice according to our constitution and values.

I've settled out my position:
I think we've already been exposed as the great hypocrite nation anyway, leaving our reputation as a fair just and humane country in a state of long term (if not permanent) disgrace, so the best solution is to stop all the illegal and shady shtein Bush Cheney trademarked--something Obama has not gone far enough towards doing at all--and let history (or even a later administration) be the judge of the criminal policies of the Bush administration.

So we didn't get any information after waterboarding??? I thought the issue was how many times we waterboarded him before we got information? Like I said, I tend to side with actual intelligence officials, who know a hell a lot more about what goes on, than some whiney liberals bitching about American values.  Seven, count them SEVEN, former CIA directors have asked him to stop Holder.  Obama has refused. 

[ATV]

Some historians argued it saved lives, other argue the opposite

Another example that all it takes is one moron to write the contrary position thereby supposedly validating an internet loon's entire argument. See Global Warming, WMDs in Iraq, UFOs, etc.

[bowzer]

Some historians argued it saved lives, other argue the opposite

Another example that all it takes is one moron to write the contrary position thereby supposedly validating an internet loon's entire argument. See Global Warming, WMDs in Iraq, UFOs, etc.

Not really sure what that means, but perhaps you need to check out some history books.  I agree with dropping the A-bomb, but I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left.  Making such a big deal about the torture of one of the biggest scumbags in the history of the earth, but agreeing with the bombings of civilian cities. 

[mpmcgraw]

Both were big ports with a large war industrial center.

What the farg are you talking about?

They were picked because of their war time importance to japan and because there were few POW camps close to the cities.  They were not targeting civilians. 

[bowzer]

Both were big ports with a large war industrial center.

What the farg are you talking about?

They were picked because of their war time importance to japan and because there were few POW camps close to the cities.  They were not targeting civilians. 

How many civilians were killed in those bombings?

So bombing in war to save lives? ok.  Torturing in war to save lives? Not ok

Just clarifying.

[rjs246]

I'm pretty sure that the only people saying that waterboarding was effective are the people who stand to be in mountains of trouble if it is deemed otherwise.

[mpmcgraw]

Word.

This is a joke.

Now bowzer tell me why you support the Patriot Act, as I'm sure you do.

[shorebird]

Torture is illegal, ineffective, and un-American.  The only people who disagree with that are ignorant--millions and millions of Americans don't think about it, don't care, just want a new shiny thing--or they suckle at the Bush/Cheney/Palin teat, in which case torture helped us find the WMDs in Iraq, U.S.A!! U.S.A.!U.S.A!!

What to do about the fact that we tortured people under Bush/Cheney is tricky.  In short, we have to live by the principle that no one is above the law, or else finally surrender the moral high ground we have claimed for so long.  On the other hand, we need to move ahead and deal with the issues we face today; investigating the crimes of the recent past will certainly handicap efforts to address all manner of current problems.  It's bad enough dealing with an obstructionist right wing on health care and financial reform, can you imagine the hissy fit they would throw if we actually tried to hold people accountable for shteinting all over American values?  Not to mention the democrats who knew and did nothing about it?  Any chance of progress against our several gargantuan problems would wither on the vine in the political firestorm that would occur if we tried to administer justice according to our constitution and values.

I've settled out my position:
I think we've already been exposed as the great hypocrite nation anyway, leaving our reputation as a fair just and humane country in a state of long term (if not permanent) disgrace, so the best solution is to stop all the illegal and shady shtein Bush Cheney trademarked--something Obama has not gone far enough towards doing at all--and let history (or even a later administration) be the judge of the criminal policies of the Bush administration.

Yes. A great nation of hypocrites with our just and humane acts nothing but a disgrace. So...might as well keep on torturing our enemies. But not waterboarding. I'm talking real torture, like  food deprivation, crapping in a quart pail after drinking rancid water. Ripping off fingernails, and when no nails are left, cut off the finger, then the hand. Castoration is a good one. How 'bout a 1/2 drill to the hand, or the popping out of an eye? A blow torch to the skin? Electrocution? Or one of my personal favorites, the ole' head in a vice.

[ATV]

The fire raids killed around a million people...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0314-01.htm

I think the A-bombs killed around 70,000 each? Although I don't think it's accurate that we were targeting Japan's infrastructure. We were trying to have them surrender.