Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Seabiscuit36]

I'd vote to suspend funding from ACORN too.  Did you see the outfits those wingnuts were in?  Passing themselves off like a pimp and prostitute from a blaxploitation flick?  Anyone who can't smell a rat in the face of those idiots ought to be fired, and so ought the person who hired them.

Funding gone, whatever.  ACORN is a non issue. 

this

[bowzer]

I'd vote to suspend funding from ACORN too.  Did you see the outfits those wingnuts were in?  Passing themselves off like a pimp and prostitute from a blaxploitation flick?  Anyone who can't smell a rat in the face of those idiots ought to be fired, and so ought the person who hired them.

Funding gone, whatever.  ACORN is a non issue. 

this

That's the problem. It does matter.  Obviously not on the same scale as health care and other matters, but to just ignore it is laughable.  They are set to receive billions of dollars from the stimulus package.

And let's not ignore all the voter fraud that has been going on...

[bowzer]

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/18/seven-cia-directors-ask-obama-to-stop-criminal-probe/

Screw those guys.. they don't know anything about national security.

[ATV]

They are set to receive billions of dollars from the stimulus package.

Evidence?

The tactic of just making shtein up is so 2003.

[bowzer]

They are set to receive billions of dollars from the stimulus package.

Evidence?

The tactic of just making shtein up is so 2003.

Fail?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/special-editorial-reports/ACORN-got-53-million-in-federal-funds-since-94-now-eligible-for-up-to-8-billion-more-44406217.html

[ATV]

Excellent article. That is some fascinating stuff. "Could". Thanks.

[rjs246]

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/18/seven-cia-directors-ask-obama-to-stop-criminal-probe/

Screw those guys.. they don't know anything about national security.

I am very much torn about this whole thing.

First, I don't think I believe that the agents who carried out the torture are really at fault. They were told explicitly that what they were doing wasn't torture. Plus, there's a line of command and they are only minimally empowered to break with their marching orders. But who do you then hold responsible? The lawyers who went about creating briefs to justify something that is internationally considered to be torture? The politicians who pressured the lawyers into that position? The commanding officers who gave the orders? You get into so many gray areas. It's easy to point to an operative peon and say 'You waterboarded someone.' It's much more difficult to say to Dick Cheney 'You put intense pressure on the legal establishment and your intelligence agencies to prove something that would advance your agenda. You either explicitly or implicitly advocated for torture. We are going to investigate and possibly charge you for applying pressure and advocating...'

Second, what does it accomplish at this point to follow through with the probe? An argument could be made that it is counter-productive.

Of course all of this has to be weighed against the fact that by letting all of this go we tell the world that America's era of righteous might is officially over. That there are no consequences for ruining our reputation and sacrificing our country's principles. The soul of who we are and who we believed our country to be is at question because of this. Is it worth abandoning the effort, simply to appease politicians, bureaucrats and knee-jerk paranoids who think that we are under imminent threat of annihilation and any means of preventing that is justified? I honestly don't know.

[rjs246]

Civility from the right.

See. Was that so hard?

[bowzer]

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/18/seven-cia-directors-ask-obama-to-stop-criminal-probe/

Screw those guys.. they don't know anything about national security.

I am very much torn about this whole thing.

First, I don't think I believe that the agents who carried out the torture are really at fault. They were told explicitly that what they were doing wasn't torture. Plus, there's a line of command and they are only minimally empowered to break with their marching orders. But who do you then hold responsible? The lawyers who went about creating briefs to justify something that is internationally considered to be torture? The politicians who pressured the lawyers into that position? The commanding officers who gave the orders? You get into so many gray areas. It's easy to point to an operative peon and say 'You waterboarded someone.' It's much more difficult to say to Dick Cheney 'You put intense pressure on the legal establishment and your intelligence agencies to prove something that would advance your agenda. You either explicitly or implicitly advocated for torture. We are going to investigate and possibly charge you for applying pressure and advocating...'

Second, what does it accomplish at this point to follow through with the probe? An argument could be made that it is counter-productive.

Of course all of this has to be weighed against the fact that by letting all of this go we tell the world that America's era of righteous might is officially over. That there are no consequences for ruining our reputation and sacrificing our country's principles. The soul of who we are and who we believed our country to be is at question because of this. Is it worth abandoning the effort, simply to appease politicians, bureaucrats and knee-jerk paranoids who think that we are under imminent threat of annihilation and any means of preventing that is justified? I honestly don't know.

It's war... shtein happens in war.   If we are to prosecute everyone who participated in this practice, which was proven successful, our counterintelligence is going to be damaged greatly.  We are going to lose valuable intel from other intelligence agenices who aren't going to want to deal with us.

[Munson]

Congrats...you just proved yourself to be a complete right wing douche bag with that post.

[mpmcgraw]

shtein happens in war?

Man you and Hitler would have gotten along well.

[bowzer]

Yes... because waterboarding someone is on par with murdering eleven million people.  Is waterboarding right? No  Did it provide valuable information that saved lives? Yes 
Should CIA agents who participated be prosecuted? No
Should the ACLU lawyers be tailing CIA agents and showing their pictures to terrorist inmates?  No


Let's go back and prosecute all the bombers in Dresden too?
Same with the those pilots who dropped the a-bombs on Japan?

[mpmcgraw]

The atomic bombs saved lives. 

More people died in one night of firebombing Tokyo than in the atomic bombings. 

Anyone none of those things have anything to do with this.  The only thing it shows is your lack of critical thinking skills.

What evidence is there that it provided valuable information and or saved lives?

[bowzer]

The atomic bombs saved lives. 

More people died in one night of firebombing Tokyo than in the atomic bombings. 

Anyone none of those things have anything to do with this.  The only thing it shows is your lack of critical thinking skills.

What evidence is there that it provided valuable information and or saved lives?

So murdering civilians is ok as long as it saves American lives?  Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. 

What evidence?  All the CIA operatives, agents, and interrogators, who stated it was effective.  Sorry, I'll side with them over some leftist loon who is upset we tortured the guy behind 9/11.

[mpmcgraw]

Oh the people who some want to be prosecuted said it was an effective national defense measure?  That's shocking.