Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Phanatic]

Anyone who thinks there's someone making 80k to put in a cup holder hasn't set foot in an auto factory recently. Sure workers make more then foreign auto makers and their salaries can be cut to help the company but that won't solve the problem. Politicians are great for misdirection and everyone buys into or argues about it preventing discussion about the real issue facing the auto industry.

The Auto industry is failing because the credit markets are in disarray and selling cars depends on auto loans! Sure they've made a comedy list of errors but lets face it. No loans.... no cars sold.

[ATV]

Some of those guys make 80k a yr. putting cup holders in pickups.

Yes, complete bullcrap. I'd like to see a shred of evidence for this.

This sort of simplistic thought is used to confuse the issue. The Right Wing spews this junk over its airwaves. It then goes into some people's ears and into their brain. Next thing you know these people are saying "Yea, f*** those overpaid union members - It's their fault American cars suck. It's their fault they've battled congress to keep the mpg standards high. It's their fault the car industry pushed through the tax breaks for SUVs. farg them."

[ATV]

Some of those guys make 80k a yr. putting cup holders in pickups.

Yes, complete bullcrap. I'd like to see a shred of evidence for this.

This sort of simplistic thought is used to confuse the issue. The Right Wing spews this junk over its airwaves. It then goes into some people's ears and into their brain. Next thing you know these people are saying "Yea, f*** those overpaid union members - It's their fault American cars suck. It's their fault the industry battled congress to keep the mpg standards low. It's their fault the car industry lobbied for the tax breaks for SUVs. Farg them."

[shorebird]

Anyone who thinks there's someone making 80k to put in a cup holder hasn't set foot in an auto factory recently. Sure workers make more then foreign auto makers and their salaries can be cut to help the company but that won't solve the problem. Politicians are great for misdirection and everyone buys into or argues about it preventing discussion about the real issue facing the auto industry.

The Auto industry is failing because the credit markets are in disarray and selling cars depends on auto loans! Sure they've made a comedy list of errors but lets face it. No loans.... no cars sold.

Well, I might have exaggerated a little, but even if you go by the very liberal assumption that the avg. autoworkers salary is around $30 an hr., thats still an average annual salary of 60k. Not including health benefits and pensions. And a lot of their pensions are 25% base pay. Overall, the avg. autoworker is making a lot closer to 80k than you think.

I don't think the workers fault at all and don't pretend to know how to fix the problem. I don't think anyone does really. I think the american auto industry is doomed to failure because foriegn automakers build a better car that is more fuel efficient, and American autobuilders made bad decisions to keep building gas guzzling suv's. But, imo, I don't think the bailout is going to work, and don't want my money going out for it.

[shorebird]

The Auto industry is failing because the credit markets are in disarray and selling cars depends on auto loans! Sure they've made a comedy list of errors but lets face it. No loans.... no cars sold.

This is true.

[ice grillin you]

the auto makers wouldnt have agreed to pay them that much if they didnt think they could easily afford it...problem is they ran their businesses into the ground with horrible business models now they want the employees to help them get out of it...take a hike fargers...when  the car industry was making gobs of money they werent offering to give the unions big raises...the unions had to fight for every penny they got

[ice grillin you]

pretty interesting article on barry and blagoyovichs rivalry

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121103936.html

[ATV]

if you go by the very liberal assumption that the avg. autoworkers salary is around $30 an hr.

Why be very liberal. A more conservative estimate would be $20 an hour.

[shorebird]

HA! No. Did you read the article? By liberal, I meant liberal Democrats.

[ATV]

Farheed Zakaria's take, with which I basically agree...

Actually there are 12 international car companies that have manufacturing operations in the United States. Collectively, they employ 113,000 Americans directly -- even though that is less than the 239,000 at Ford, GM and Chrysler. However, those international car companies sell more cars than the Big Three and their customers love their products. They have millions of American shareholders. They do sophisticated work like research, design and marketing in the United States. All in all, they add jobs and high value to the United States.

CNN: So what are they doing better than the U.S. car companies?

Zakaria: It is simple -- better management. Yes, Detroit has problems because of its legacy costs, the cost of paying health care and pensions to its retirees. But many other Americans firms in other industries have had to change their benefit systems or die. Detroit always managed to avoid making the change in part because of government assistance.

But companies like Toyota, Honda, and BMW are not just skilled at cutting costs -- they make better cars. They have more flexible factories and production systems, and understand what American consumers want.

For example, Toyota and Honda are years ahead of American carmakers in designing and producing hybrid cars, and as consumer demand moves in that direction, they will reap the rewards.

Al Gore remarked on the problem on our show a few weeks back. "It's really tragic that General Motors, for example, allowed Toyota to get a seven-year head start on the hybrid drive train in the Prius that is now positioned to really be a dominant feature of the industry in this century."

CNN: But aren't the Big Three saying they will restructure to compete with their foreign competitors?

Zakaria: Yes, as in the past, now that the heat is on, Detroit has been promising to change its ways -- as long as it gets cash. But many people are skeptical and think of it as just a jobs program.

CNN: So you are against the bailout?

Zakaria: No. But the reasons the CEOs of Ford, GM and Chrysler present -- that they will restructure, they are still competitive, they will change -- are bogus; they won't. The best argument for the bailout is that it is the most cost-effective jobs program that the government can run in the short term.

Spending on infrastructure to create jobs will take months, maybe years. However, keeping the Big Three afloat will keep hundreds of thousands of jobs in place quickly and easily. It's true the companies will eventually go bankrupt, but by then hopefully the economy can withstand it.

And Michael Moore's with which I absolutely agree....

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.

Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.

But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.

We have a little more than a month to go of this madness. As I sit here in Michigan today, tens of thousands of hard working, honest, decent Americans do not believe they can make it to January 20th. The malaise here is astounding. Why must they suffer because of the mistakes of every CEO from Roger Smith to Rick Wagoner? Make management and the boards of directors and the shareholders pay for this.

Of course that is heresy to the 31 Republicans who decided to blame the poor, miserable autoworkers for this mess. And our wonderful media complied with their spin on the morning news shows: "UAW Refuses to Give Concessions Killing Auto Bailout Bill." In fact the UAW has given concession after concession, reduced their benefits, agreed to get rid of the Jobs Bank and agreed to make it harder for their retirees to live from week to week. Yes! That's what we need to do! It's the Jobs Bank and the old people who have led the nation to economic ruin!

But even doing all that wasn't enough to satisfy the bastich Republicans. These Senate vampires wanted blood. Blue collar blood. You see, they weren't opposed to the bailout because they believed in the free market or capitalism. No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage. In their rage, they were driven to destroy the backbone of this country, not because the UAW hadn't given back enough, but because the UAW hadn't given up.

It appears that the sitting President has been looking for a way to end his reign by one magnanimous act, just like a warlord on his feast day. He will put his finger in the dyke, and the fragile mess of an auto industry will eke through the next few months.

That will give the Senate enough time to demand that the bankers and investment sharks who've already swiped nearly half of the $700 billion gift a chance to make the offer of cutting their pay.

Fat chance.

[ATV]

HA! No. Did you read the article?

No, but just did. The $30 an hour estimate actually includes health care, pension, etc. So I assume many of these people are actually earning less than $20 and hour.

[MDS]

Michael Moore

Fat

[shorebird]

HA! No. Did you read the article?

No, but just did. The $30 an hour estimate actually includes health care, pension, etc. So I assume many of these people are actually earning less than $20 and hour.

NO, it doesn't.

GM, which negotiated the four-year deal that serves as a template for UAW deals with Chrysler and Ford, says its total hourly labor costs dropped 6 percent this year from pre-contract levels, from $73.26 in 2006 to around $69 per hour. The new cost includes laborers' wages of $29.78 per hour, plus benefits, pensions and the cost of providing health care to more than 432,000 GM retirees, GM spokesman Tony Sapienza said.

Your an idiot if you think the UAW would have people working for less than $20 an hour. Thats around 10 bucks less than the overall $28 an hour avg. for all Americans.

[Diomedes]

I heart ATV

[shorebird]

You would.