2006 Philles Season Thread

[Geowhizzer]

Howard's OPS in August is 2.417.

Ha!

I win.

Fantasy numbers for me! 

[Geowhizzer]

Lee is another assface. He was sat down by Guillen in Chicago for not hustling. After the time off he thanked Guillen for the time off to rest up. He still didn't get that he was sat for not hustling. This was told by John Kruk on WIP a few mnths ago.

Ahhh... but he's a more productive assface than Burrell!

[PhillyPhreak54]

Pat just K'd swinging on a ball w a runner on 2nd.

[mpmcgraw]

Lee is another assface. He was sat down by Guillen in Chicago for not hustling. After the time off he thanked Guillen for the time off to rest up. He still didn't get that he was sat for not hustling. This was told by John Kruk on WIP a few mnths ago.

Ahhh... but he's a more productive assface than Burrell!

slightly

[mpmcgraw]

This is why I like/dont hate Burrell. 

A.  He still produces at a high level no matter what type of stats you want to use, traditional or my favorite, sabermetrics.
B.  I dont believe that the attitude of one player can effect the pitches and swings of his teammates.
C.  Production is more important to me than attitude.  Give me a player who(supposedly) doesnt care like Burrell, but who produces, over a "winner" like Rowand who stinks, any day of the week.
D.  You can not find a fat or ugly person who doesnt hate him (possibly except conlin) and I find it hilarious.  (Not saying everyone who hates him is fat or ugly)

[PhillyPhreak54]

I still don't get the Rowand hate.

And does he really produce when he leaves so many is scoring position?

I just don't get how you can watch him go into such free falls each year and not begin to despise him. He got a free pass the year he barely hit 200. And he struggled last year and this year he's gone down like the Titanic.

[BigEd76]

Cormier's debut in Cincy:

-- bases loaded walk
-- 3-run double


Abreu finished 0-3 with a walk and a run

[mpmcgraw]

I still don't get the Rowand hate.

And does he really produce when he leaves so many is scoring position?

I just don't get how you can watch him go into such free falls each year and not begin to despise him. He got a free pass the year he barely hit 200. And he struggled last year and this year he's gone down like the Titanic.

How can you not despise Rowand? 

He is producing around Bell territory right now and the defense has not been as good as advertised.  I think he is one of the top 5 most overrated players in the history of Philadelphia sports already.

I guess it is ok since he only makes 3 million so he is supposed to stink? 

[PhillyPhreak54]

I don't hate him because he can play CF. He's not Kenny Lofton and he's not Jason Michaels. And I'm not talking about his face plant either. His defense is infinitley better than both of those guys. And if he sucked so much why did Kenny Williams hate trading him away? Why did he want to try to reacquire him? Because he's a good clubhouse guy. And despite the numbers, he is not worse than Bell.

I think maybe you bought a little too much into his defense before he got here. Some people were making him out to be a white Willie Mays.

And he hasn't always been a terrible hitter. Hell, I remember arguing with the crowds of folks who wanted him to lead off or hit 2nd before the season started. I even said Bell should hit 2nd before him because even though Bell sucks, he puts the ball into play whereas Rowand will K more than I like. But I knew that before this season even started.

You make it sound like the guy is Ricky Otero.

[Geowhizzer]

This is why I like/dont hate Burrell. 

A.  He still produces at a high level no matter what type of stats you want to use, traditional or my favorite, sabermetrics.
B.  I dont believe that the attitude of one player can effect the pitches and swings of his teammates.
C.  Production is more important to me than attitude.  Give me a player who(supposedly) doesnt care like Burrell, but who produces, over a "winner" like Rowand who stinks, any day of the week.
D.  You can not find a fat or ugly person who doesnt hate him (possibly except conlin) and I find it hilarious.  (Not saying everyone who hates him is fat or ugly)

A.  He's produced at a "high level" at most 2 of his 7 years.  2 Years over 100 RBI (traditional method), 2 over 80 (may be considered above average, but not high in this day and age), 2 years with a average over .275, ZERO yeas with less than 130 Ks.  ONE season with an OPS over .900.  He's been AVERAGE.  Not "high level."

B.  His attitude can affect the ATTITUDE of the other players.  Winning is contagious... and so is losing.  The Phillies, unfortunately, are a pandemic of the latter.

C.  Burrell's attitude and production have been inconsistent.  He does have streaks of excellent production (April of this year), but is also suspecptible of prolonged slumps (May, June, or the entire 2003 season).

Again, I don't hate Burrell.  I have been frustrated at his inconsistent play.  You said before that you can't judge Burrell on people's expectations.  He was the NUMBER ONE DRAFT PICK.  He got a $50 million dollar contract.  Like it or not, that's going to increase peoples expectations of his play.

I won't blame Burrell for the attitude in the clubhouse.  The Phillies franchise, except for a few golden years that somehow corresponded with my childhood, has a long and perverse history of losing.  From trading Grover Cleveland Alexander for Peanuts (literally) because he might be drafted into World War I, to 30 out of 31 years of losing records, including five in a row of 103+ losses (when they only played 154), to the owner of the club being banned from baseball for betting against the Phillies. to the blow-up in 1964, to trading Ferguson Jenkins for Bob Buhl, to throwing in Ryne Sandberg in a trade for Ivan DeJesus, to the present debacle.  No one in their right mind can put the blame for all that on one man.  However, Burrell was seen as a potential franchise player- perhaps someone like Mike Schmidt, who could carry the club on his back and win a championship.  Whatever the reason, Burrell has never lived up to his advanced billing.

Some might compare the "Mr. Cool" image Burrell projects with Mike Schmidt, who also caught a lot of flack for seeming to not care.  Yet Schmidt hit 548 homers, won 3 MVPS, played in umpteen all-star games, generally played much better in the second half of his career (except the last two) than in the first half, played stellar defense, had speed (especially when he was younger- he nearly became a 30/30 guy in 1975 when the only two that had done it were Willie Mays and Bobby Bonds), and something only 24 other Phillies have the right to boast of- a World Series title.  Schmidt was the catalyst of the one bright era of the Phillies' history- the one era of sustained excellence.  So far, Burrell's legacy is being the 2nd or 3rd best hitter on teams that finished second.  Far more was expected.

I wish no ill will to Burrell.  In fact, since the Phillies seem to be stuck with him for the duration of his contract, I earnestly wish that he would actually fulfill the promise that his college career, his draft ranking, his "Pat the Bat" monicker pointed to in the 1998 draft.  He's falled far short of that potential.

[mpmcgraw]

I don't hate him because he can play CF. He's not Kenny Lofton and he's not Jason Michaels. And I'm not talking about his face plant either. His defense is infinitley better than both of those guys. And if he sucked so much why did Kenny Williams hate trading him away? Why did he want to try to reacquire him? Because he's a good clubhouse guy. And despite the numbers, he is not worse than Bell.

I think maybe you bought a little too much into his defense before he got here. Some people were making him out to be a white Willie Mays.

And he hasn't always been a terrible hitter. Hell, I remember arguing with the crowds of folks who wanted him to lead off or hit 2nd before the season started. I even said Bell should hit 2nd before him because even though Bell sucks, he puts the ball into play whereas Rowand will K more than I like. But I knew that before this season even started.

You make it sound like the guy is Ricky Otero.

I agreed with you on batting Bell second at the begginning of the season by the way.

I hate people who cant walk.  For someone who hasnt hit worth a damn for 2 years he sure has no plate discipline.  He was good at the begginning of the year than the pitchers adjusted, Rowand might just be making more adjustments and he very well may make me look like an idiot, but I seriously doubt it.

I dont like that some people think he is part of the core, he is not someone you build around, he may be a somewhat servicable piece, but where the Phillies are at now we dont need a Rowand.  We have Victorino, Bourn coming up very soon, and Golson who will hopefully take big strides in his development in the minors. 

[mpmcgraw]

This is why I like/dont hate Burrell. 

A.  He still produces at a high level no matter what type of stats you want to use, traditional or my favorite, sabermetrics.
B.  I dont believe that the attitude of one player can effect the pitches and swings of his teammates.
C.  Production is more important to me than attitude.  Give me a player who(supposedly) doesnt care like Burrell, but who produces, over a "winner" like Rowand who stinks, any day of the week.
D.  You can not find a fat or ugly person who doesnt hate him (possibly except conlin) and I find it hilarious.  (Not saying everyone who hates him is fat or ugly)

A.  He's produced at a "high level" at most 2 of his 7 years.  2 Years over 100 RBI (traditional method), 2 over 80 (may be considered above average, but not high in this day and age), 2 years with a average over .275, ZERO yeas with less than 130 Ks.  ONE season with an OPS over .900.  He's been AVERAGE.  Not "high level."

B.  His attitude can affect the ATTITUDE of the other players.  Winning is contagious... and so is losing.  The Phillies, unfortunately, are a pandemic of the latter.

C.  Burrell's attitude and production have been inconsistent.  He does have streaks of excellent production (April of this year), but is also suspecptible of prolonged slumps (May, June, or the entire 2003 season)..

You dont think a .900 OPS year is high level?  I have to disagree with you there.  I think he will end up there this year too. 

B.  I just dont understand how this effects anything unless you believe in karma or vibes or whatever the farg that shtein is called, and right now I dont.

C.  He is not consistent during the year by any stretch of the imagination.  But he may be starting to put together a stretch of solid seasons with similiar numbers.  I am probably more optimistic about Burrell than most people though.

[PhillyPhreak54]

Well, as much as I like Bourn he is not proven right now. So I would like to find out that he can do a little something before giving up on Rowand. And will Victorino be exposed if he plays everyday?

And I think that him smashing his face up had something to do with his hitting being subpar since. Because I believe that is when he really started to cool off at the plate.

He doesn't walk a lot. Thats true. And thats why I would rather have him hitting 6th.

[mpmcgraw]

Well, as much as I like Bourn he is not proven right now. So I would like to find out that he can do a little something before giving up on Rowand. And will Victorino be exposed if he plays everyday?

And I think that him smashing his face up had something to do with his hitting being subpar since. Because I believe that is when he really started to cool off at the plate.

He doesn't walk a lot. Thats true. And thats why I would rather have him hitting 6th.

Ok, so you are the Phillies GM.  Assumming that Rowand finishes the year around these numbers (which may not be a safe assumption) do you pick up the 5 million team option, or take the risk he doesnt pick up the 3 million player option.

[Geowhizzer]

How can you not despise Rowand? 

He is producing around Bell territory right now and the defense has not been as good as advertised.  I think he is one of the top 5 most overrated players in the history of Philadelphia sports already.

I guess it is ok since he only makes 3 million so he is supposed to stink? 

Rowand's had as many seasons over .900 OPS as Burrell... 

I've been rather disappointed with Rowand this season.  I was hoping that he would bring an infusion of life into the Phils' team that fell just short of reaching the playoff last year.  I was hoping that, just maybe, Rowand would bring that little swagger, little fire, that could combust the lackadasical clubhouse that the Phils had a reputation for.

If you look at the stats, Rowand's numbers were much higher before the injury than they have been since (over .300 for April and May, around .225 since coming back).  I am willing to give Rowand a bit of a break on his lack of production being down recently- he may have come back sooner than he was ready.  I don't know that for certain.

Rowand is not supposed to give you the numbers of a Pat Burrell.  He's a decent hitter (career .279/.335/.448/.783) with some power and production.  He's ideally slotted at the 6th or 7th position in the batting order.  He gives you great defense.

If you're choosing to "hate" Rowand because he's not hitting .300/30/100, he's not really that kind of hitter.  Burrell was supposed to be that kind of hitter.

Burrell was supposed to be a Schmidt-type hitter (with a better average).  Rowand is more like a Glenn Wilson-type hitter from 1984/1985.  Some pop, some production, but not a 3- 4- or 5- hole type of hitter.

I would like to see .275-.290, 15-20 HR, 65-80 RBI (and 80 would be a stretch) from Rowand.

I would like to see .290, 40-45 HR, 125+ RBI from Burrell.  He supposedly had that potential and more.

And, yes, in the real world salary does have something to do with it.  A-Rod is getting shellacked in NY because his production is "down."  Why?  Because he makes $25 freaking million a year.  Burrell is getting paid a star's salary, and has yet to truly and consistently produce like one.

Of course, I think they all get paid ridiculous salaries.  But I still watch, and I still care.