Dead in 2005

[PhillyGirl]

Jef Raskin, Apple McIntosh creator dies at 61

[Zanshin]

I think the most selfish thing you can do is reproduce....

I know where you're going with that, and you're welcome to the thought-- but I'd counter that having a kid is the most selfless thing you can do, if you aim to do it right.  Everything I do is about "him" and nothing is about "me" anymore, at all.

[Diomedes]

But he IS you, get it?  You're not "selfless" for just any kid..only for your own.  Why?  Because he is your little you, your little smack in the face of death inevitable.  I don't hold it against you, it's natural.  But selfless it is not.

[Zanshin]

I'd disagree.  He's not a little me, and I have no desire to turn him into that.  I thought long and hard before trying to have a kid-- and even longer when we decided we would try.  There are too many people in the world and it's a tough place-- and I wasn't sure I wanted to impose that on a being.  The more I thought about it, though, the more I thought that the world needed more good people, and that I thought I'd have a chance to bring something positive into it.   

The death angle doesn't phase me; never has.  I'll be long forgotten whether I had a kid or not-- I have no illusions or problems with that.  Only thing is that now I don't want to die before I have a chance to finish raising him...that's really the only difference.  Not that I "wanted" to before.

[QB Eagles]

Jef Raskin, Apple McIntosh creator dies at 61

Whoa! Raskin was a great guy; I had no idea this was coming. As a lifelong Mac user, I was eternally grateful for his groundbreaking ideas about "the humane interface." R.I.P.

[Geowhizzer]

I'd disagree.  He's not a little me, and I have no desire to turn him into that.  I thought long and hard before trying to have a kid-- and even longer when we decided we would try.  There are too many people in the world and it's a tough place-- and I wasn't sure I wanted to impose that on a being.  The more I thought about it, though, the more I thought that the world needed more good people, and that I thought I'd have a chance to bring something positive into it.   

The death angle doesn't phase me; never has.  I'll be long forgotten whether I had a kid or not-- I have no illusions or problems with that.  Only thing is that now I don't want to die before I have a chance to finish raising him...that's really the only difference.  Not that I "wanted" to before.

Amen to that.

Seriously, I was not certain that I even wanted to have a child before we did.  My wife really wanted to have one, but I was literally sitting the fence, especially once we hit 30 without having one.

Now, when I see my little baby- who is a personality all his own- I would give up anything for him, life included.

[phillymic2000]

But he IS you, get it?  You're not "selfless" for just any kid..only for your own.  Why?  Because he is your little you, your little smack in the face of death inevitable.  I don't hold it against you, it's natural.  But selfless it is not.

Both my kids have different personalities, then myself, and my wife. We are trying to teach them to act and treat thmeselves, and others right. The only thing I will push, is the philly teams and my daugther is already on board, and my son loves his eagle jersey! Death does not worry me. I know there is a better place.

[MDS]

Jack Nicklaus' 17 month old grandson

[Zanshin]

Wow...that's just farging brutal.  I can't even imagine that.

[Diomedes]

My final comment on the "Having kids is selfish/selfless" discussion, then I'll let it go.

I think you guys misunderstand me.  I do not mean to say that you had kids so you could mold them into mini-Zanshins, mini-phillymics, etc.  What I mean is that, they already ARE little Zanshins and phillymics, and that was the point in making them.  You had to have your own, made from you.  It's natural: people breed to create metaphysical extensions of themselves:  Having your own children is really just a way of projecting your life past your death, of leaving to the world a piece of you--not necessarily so that the world will remember you, only so that you will continue to exist in a sense.  It's a matter of instinct for self preservation which all species exhibit.  It is only by reproduction that species can survive.  Since your progeny is your preservation, it's more important (to you) than other peoples' offspring, and you treat them as such.  You wouldn't for example gladly give up your life for my kid..only your own.  In this way, reproduction is perfectly selfish; it's about preservation of self.
If all you wanted to do was raise good citizens/people, you could have scooped up unwanted babies by the handful and given them a good home.  Plenty of crack babies and other unwanted kids in the care of the State.  That would merit the term "selfless" much better than making your own.

One thing is clear:  the world does not need another Diomedes, and neither do I.

[Zanshin]

Eh.  I said before I understood where you were going with that, but I don't agree with the entire selfish thing.  I have a bunch of thoughts about adoption and everything else that I won't get into here, though.  I've, unfortunately, had to give that option quite a bit of thought and consideration.  The conclusion that I'd come to was that I'd do it, but not in the way most people view it.

Anyway, if I was truly being selfish, not having a kid would have been easier.  I could have discounted the affect on my family and my wife, and not have had the unbelievable responsibility that goes with it.  If I was really being selfish, I would've picked something that would have allowed me more time to play Madden .

[Geowhizzer]

Eh.  I said before I understood where you were going with that, but I don't agree with the entire selfish thing.  I have a bunch of thoughts about adoption and everything else that I won't get into here, though.  I've, unfortunately, had to give that option quite a bit of thought and consideration.  The conclusion that I'd come to was that I'd do it, but not in the way most people view it.

Anyway, if I was truly being selfish, not having a kid would have been easier.  I could have discounted the affect on my family and my wife, and not have had the unbelievable responsibility that goes with it.  If I was really being selfish, I would've picked something that would have allowed me more time to play Madden .

If I didn't have a kid, I'd have that big-screen TV you all like to talk about. 

[Zanshin]

lol...Dude, there's nothing better than The Wiggles on the big screen in surround sound.  All "Fruit Salad" all the time .

Yummy yummy.

[Diomedes]

Anyway, if I was truly being selfish, not having a kid would have been easier.

Selfish is not necessarily easy.  Many selfish things are difficult, time consuming, require responsibility, etc.

[Greenfeather]

We need a celebrity death to put this thread back on track.