Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Rome]

That's what the author was trying to suggest.  What's more interesting to me than the article, though, is the responses she received in the comments section.  Basically they suggested she had "no right" to offer her opinion because she never lived under despotic rule. 

Um, yeah... so?   She lives in America, and in this country everyone has a right to offer their opinions, including female journalists.

The irony of them shooting her down by ostensibly telling her to shut the farg up is so rich I almost commented on it, but instead, I kept it cordial.  A lot of good it does, though.

[Eagaholic]

Understandable, yes.  Acceptable, no. 

Gaddafi definitely "had it coming" so to speak, but no civilized society should ever be accepting of street justice over due process. 

If we as people are ever going to progress then we have to not only raise the standard, but do everything we possibly can to live up to those standards and try and drag those who don't up to that same level.  Brushing it off because the guy did horrible things is no excuse.  Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles all get their due process.  Gaddafi shouldn't have been any different.

It's not about what Gaddafi did or didn't deserve, it's about humanity.  It's about people acting like people and not a bunch of blood thirsty savages who are seeking revenge instead of justice.     

Sarge, "brushing it off?"  And you're the one reducing them to "a bunch of blood thirsty savages"?

I'm just not all that high and mighty about it.

For business as usual crime and said serial killers, rapists, pedophiles as a general rule is due process a necessity? Yes, agreed. In the midst of gunfire during a civil war with a dictator guilty of horrible atrocities trying to escape, no. It's an exceptionally rare situation in a foreign country with different values, customs and ideals and we should be careful not to impose our own parochial mores imo. Granted some legal structures and process are important for a civilized society as long as its not some sort of have-to- be-like-us America uber alles justice system, which always works so well.

And for the record I have no problem with the SEALS shooting Bin Laden in the head even though (apparently) he was unarmed and maybe could have been taken alive for 'due process'.

[Eagaholic]

That's what the author was trying to suggest.  What's more interesting to me than the article, though, is the responses she received in the comments section.  Basically they suggested she had "no right" to offer her opinion because she never lived under despotic rule. 

Um, yeah... so?   She lives in America, and in this country everyone has a right to offer their opinions, including female journalists.

The irony of them shooting her down by ostensibly telling her to shut the farg up is so rich I almost commented on it, but instead, I kept it cordial.  A lot of good it does, though.

I would agree with this.

[Rome]

HAHAHAHAHA!   THE stillupfront HAS A BULLET IN HIS HEAD!  HE'S A ZOMBIE WITH A BULLET IN HIS HEAD!

(Yes, that is real and it was circulated by a GOP committee in Virginia.)

[hbionic]

I'm with Eagaholic.

It's akin to saying if Hitler would have been caught, he should have been taken alive.

F' that, certain guys have a bullet with their name on it. Guys like Dictators who have killed, terrorized, massacred, and tortured their own people, the legal system is not for them. People like that don't deserve justice. They deserve what they get. Death when they don't expect it. farg them. 

[hbionic]

HAHAHAHAHA!   THE stillupfront HAS A BULLET IN HIS HEAD!  HE'S A ZOMBIE WITH A BULLET IN HIS HEAD!

(Yes, that is real and it was circulated by a GOP committee in Virginia.)

This to me is bullshtein. I hope he wins another term, in the least just to spite the haters.

[shorebird]

I understand about the humanity part and all that. Some people that feel that way are against the death penalty also. Gaddafi never would have made it to a cell, he'd have been executed, but if he ever did, he had the same fate or worse waiting for him there. He'd have been paraded around, been lucky to have even lasted long enough to make it to a court room. Those that killed him might not have known it but they probably did him a favor. They'd seen so much savagery commited by Gaddafi that it made them act savage and they fought fire with fire, and it ended up on video. It's not much different than to tactically invade a compound and bust into a room killing bin Ladin with a machine gun. Then take his body out to sea and dump it. We just did it with style. Was that justice, or revenge? Damn shame there wasn't someone there with video. 

In this country, I really don't see much of a difference in excution, or locking someone up for life in a place were what is lead can't be called a life. At best it's a savage, cruel exsistance amoung predators. A lot of men go nuts, and those who don't and are lucky enough to get out are changed forever and don't belong in society. But, when they commit that murder one felony, there are people who want to show them mercy. Who are they showing mercy for? The killer, or is it so they can feel better about themselves, because were these guys are going they'd sometimes be better off dead anyway. Thats why most of the weaker ones opt out. Whats worse, execution or a life locked up in a cage like and animal with other animals? 

P.S. if it was revenge, I don't have a problem with it.

[hbionic]

I'm sure Obama kept the body so the Bushs' can monkey farg the shtein out of the corpse.

[Rome]

I would have much rather had bin Laden (and Hitler, for that matter) captured and put on trial for their crimes.  Yes, both eventually would have fallen under the sword, and both would have deserved their fate, but at least justice would have been afforded both, which is far more than either one of those two iceholes ever afforded their victims.

We can go back and forth about them deserving their fates but to do so is stupid because they both deserved it.  No one is denying that either, not even the author of the piece.

All she's saying is if the middle east is ever going to move out of the 10th century and into the 21st, then the butchering on both sides is going to have to stop.

And for the record, I am absolutely against the death penalty in our country.  It's state-sponsored murder and it's wrong no matter the crime.

[shorebird]

Some would say it's state sponsored justice, or revenge. Ha!

It's no worse than commiting people to an existance that is just as babaric as the act that executes them, and execution is quicker. A killer gets locked up, commited to life in prison and society turns it's back on them while they live in hell. To stay the life of a brutal killer does the favor of making us look civilized, but looking at the big picture whats worse, execution or condeming a man to hell on earth, and saying they deserve it? Seems to me that a life like that is better off not living, and yup, execution of murderers, rapist, and phedophies is doing them and society a favor. Letting them scratch out the rest of their existance living in a place thats as savage as the crime isn't showing mercy, it's making us able to throw out our chest and shout about how civilized we are.

[Geowhizzer]

Philosophically, I have nothing really against the death penalty.  In practice, though, I can't really condone it.

As I've grown older, the one thing that bothers me about the death penalty is the possibility of executing an innocent man.  To me, no matter how small the chance may be, it's too great for my conscience.   Too many humans making that decision.

Even with a life sentence, there's always the chance that exonerating evidence will come to light.  Once the execution is held, that chance is gone.

[Sgt PSN]

Understandable, yes.  Acceptable, no. 

Gaddafi definitely "had it coming" so to speak, but no civilized society should ever be accepting of street justice over due process. 

If we as people are ever going to progress then we have to not only raise the standard, but do everything we possibly can to live up to those standards and try and drag those who don't up to that same level.  Brushing it off because the guy did horrible things is no excuse.  Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles all get their due process.  Gaddafi shouldn't have been any different.

It's not about what Gaddafi did or didn't deserve, it's about humanity.  It's about people acting like people and not a bunch of blood thirsty savages who are seeking revenge instead of justice.     

Sarge, "brushing it off?"  And you're the one reducing them to "a bunch of blood thirsty savages"?

If you don't think that the people beating, torturing and ultimately killing Gaddafi in the cell phone videos weren't acting like savages, then I don't think you have a solid grasp of what the word "savage" really means. 

Mob mentality and mob justice are the ugly side of humanity that people seem to have little to no interest in trying to eliminate from society.  Not even here in the US.  We don't have quite the same tolerance for it as they do in other parts of the world, but it's still very much alive right here in the states and if it weren't for the fact that we take our laws so seriously here, mob justice would rule the streets in this country. 

I'm just not all that high and mighty about it.

I don't understand how anyone who wants to see an organized judicial system take precedent over mob beatings/killings as being "high and mighty."

This isn't about Gaddafi or what he did.  This isn't about whether or not I think he should live or die.  It's simply about treating all criminals the same.  You arrest them, charge them and put them on trial.  Under no circumstances do you make exceptions and allow a mob to execute someone. 

Do I think he was a pos who deserved to die?  Absolutely.  Do I think he got what he had coming to him?  Without a doubt.  But at the same time, humanity took a back seat to rage and justice took a back seat to revenge and neither should ever be condoned or accepted.  Unlike wild animals, we have the ability to rationalize.  When will we finally start doing it? 

For business as usual crime and said serial killers, rapists, pedophiles as a general rule is due process a necessity? Yes, agreed. In the midst of gunfire during a civil war with a dictator guilty of horrible atrocities trying to escape, no. It's an exceptionally rare situation in a foreign country with different values, customs and ideals and we should be careful not to impose our own parochial mores imo.

I agree that we should not force our legal system on another country.  But I think that we should demand countries to use whatever system it is they have in place. 

And for the record I have no problem with the SEALS shooting Bin Laden in the head even though (apparently) he was unarmed and maybe could have been taken alive for 'due process'.

The difference here imo is that the strike on Bin Laden's compound was a military action, not a civil uprising.  But I will say that if Bin Laden was in fact unarmed and posed no threat, he should have been brought in alive (and executed if/when found guilty).  That's something that we will probably never know for certain though. 

[Eagaholic]

Understandable, yes.  Acceptable, no. 

Gaddafi definitely "had it coming" so to speak, but no civilized society should ever be accepting of street justice over due process. 

If we as people are ever going to progress then we have to not only raise the standard, but do everything we possibly can to live up to those standards and try and drag those who don't up to that same level.  Brushing it off because the guy did horrible things is no excuse.  Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles all get their due process.  Gaddafi shouldn't have been any different.

It's not about what Gaddafi did or didn't deserve, it's about humanity.  It's about people acting like people and not a bunch of blood thirsty savages who are seeking revenge instead of justice.     

Sarge, "brushing it off?"  And you're the one reducing them to "a bunch of blood thirsty savages"?

If you don't think that the people beating, torturing and ultimately killing Gaddafi in the cell phone videos weren't acting like savages, then I don't think you have a solid grasp of what the word "savage" really means. 

Mob mentality and mob justice are the ugly side of humanity that people seem to have little to no interest in trying to eliminate from society.  Not even here in the US.  We don't have quite the same tolerance for it as they do in other parts of the world, but it's still very much alive right here in the states and if it weren't for the fact that we take our laws so seriously here, mob justice would rule the streets in this country. 

I'm just not all that high and mighty about it.

I don't understand how anyone who wants to see an organized judicial system take precedent over mob beatings/killings as being "high and mighty."

This isn't about Gaddafi or what he did.  This isn't about whether or not I think he should live or die.  It's simply about treating all criminals the same.  You arrest them, charge them and put them on trial.  Under no circumstances do you make exceptions and allow a mob to execute someone. 

Do I think he was a pos who deserved to die?  Absolutely.  Do I think he got what he had coming to him?  Without a doubt.  But at the same time, humanity took a back seat to rage and justice took a back seat to revenge and neither should ever be condoned or accepted.  Unlike wild animals, we have the ability to rationalize.  When will we finally start doing it? 

For business as usual crime and said serial killers, rapists, pedophiles as a general rule is due process a necessity? Yes, agreed. In the midst of gunfire during a civil war with a dictator guilty of horrible atrocities trying to escape, no. It's an exceptionally rare situation in a foreign country with different values, customs and ideals and we should be careful not to impose our own parochial mores imo.

I agree that we should not force our legal system on another country.  But I think that we should demand countries to use whatever system it is they have in place. 

And for the record I have no problem with the SEALS shooting Bin Laden in the head even though (apparently) he was unarmed and maybe could have been taken alive for 'due process'.

The difference here imo is that the strike on Bin Laden's compound was a military action, not a civil uprising.  But I will say that if Bin Laden was in fact unarmed and posed no threat, he should have been brought in alive (and executed if/when found guilty).  That's something that we will probably never know for certain though. 

I think you and I view justice differently. You seem to view it as an accepted and established system of law, due process and judgment, with punishment meted out accordingly. I'm referring to it more qualitatively. If Ghaddafi got what he deserved in the end then so be it, justice was served. If it was at the hands of those fighting against him (which was really part of a military operation more than just a civil uprising at that point) who beat and killed him and that's just how the cards fell, it seems a fitting conclusion.

I'm not worried about the mob mentality aspect of it and lack of due process because it was a unique one time situation. 

To be clear I'm not endorsing them beating and killing him but neither am I quick to judge those who did. I think we can demand a ruler stop mass human rights abuses when it reaches a magnitude that social justice dictates it become a shared global responsibility. But I don't agree we have the right to go in there and 'demand' the Libyan people not kill him. That's not our business. We go far to overboard in trying to impose our agenda on other countries internal affairs, as if we have any room to talk.

Put it this way - if one night a someone broke into a man's house and at gun point raped then shot his daughter, and while the man was firing off several rounds the father jumped the assailant and wrestled the gun away - if in a fit of rage the father beat the shtein out of the man and put a bullet in his head rather than just saying "OK, we're taking you into the authorities now," I wouldn't blame him. In fact right or wrong I'd kind of applaud his actions and certainly wouldn't characterize him as a blood thirsty savage. And all this not to even mention the specter of what if the father went to turn him in and the guy got off or somehow got away.

This is what I  meant originally by Ghaddafi meeting an understandable and acceptable end. I'm not endorsing the actions of the group that killed Ghaddafi or saying that's the way it should have gone down but I'm fine with how it played out. I think we all agree we don't want mob mentality influencing our justice systems, but Ghaddafi's death was a unique circumstance and may also serve to send a message to others like or who aspire to be like him. 

[ice grillin you]

I really don't see much of a difference in excution, or locking someone up for life in a place were what is lead can't be called a life.

really?

[shorebird]

Really. Locking people up in high security penitentiary today is just about condeming someone to torture for the rest of thier lives. The media has given us a lot closer look at what goes on inside these places, and it's as brutal of an existance as there is for a man. It's not living life on any scale. It's surviving, exisiting and thats about all.