U.S.A. tortures. Go ahead, deny it Bush lovers.

[rjs246]

Just a reminder. Torture doesn't protect us, and wasn't intended to.

Five years after the Abu Ghraib revelations, we must acknowledge that our government methodically authorized torture and lied about it. But we also must contemplate the possibility that it did so not just out of a sincere, if criminally misguided, desire to "protect" us but also to promote an unnecessary and catastrophic war. Instead of saving us from "another 9/11," torture was a tool in the campaign to falsify and exploit 9/11 so that fearful Americans would be bamboozled into a mission that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The lying about Iraq remains the original sin from which flows much of the Bush White House's illegality.

[Butchers Bill]

We've got a handful of people here who think it's creative questioning, and of course wouldn't have any problem with our foes using it on our own troops.

Haven't read the whole thread as I have been away for awhile, but I wouldn't have a problem if our enemies waterboarded our troops.  It would be a vast improvement from the treatment they have received for the past 100 years.

I have heard this talking point from the left for the past few weeks and frankly do not understand it.  Regardless of your stance on waterboarding and whether or not it is torture, do you really believe that if we were to put the "enemy combatants" up in the Borgata versus Gitmo our troops would be treated any differently if they were captured??  They would have their heads cut off just as fast either way.

For the record, since I know what some of you are already thinking, I am against widespread use of enhanced interrogation techniques because when used regularly and on the wrong people it's worthless.  However, the US (and any Nation for that matter) should never take any technique off the table when there is an imminent threat to civilian populations.  I guarantee you that if when the US is hit with a mass casualty event again, and it is discovered that it could have been prevented (i.e. there was someone in custody and we asked them politely to tell us what they knew, but they refused and we said "OK thanks") there will be an impeachment.

[Father Demon]

That's a well-written opinion.

[ice grillin you]

do you really believe that if we were to put the "enemy combatants" up in the Borgata versus Gitmo our troops would be treated any differently if they were captured??  They would have their heads cut off just as fast either way.

the people who would cut an americans head off would do it anyway....but what about people who would hold an american and not normally torture but figure since the US signs off on it we will do it to

you really think the only people an american could ever be held by would be a psychotic dome chopping muslim

i mean you dont think there are countries around the world that will use the same viewpoint that youre espousing "well america is going to torture us anyway so we should torture americans"

or are we the only ones that can have that perspective?

[Seabiscuit36]

Has society ever changed?  Progressive minds in america and Europe will never change those in 3rd world countries and countries with little outside contact. 

I firmly belive Torture is wrong, but if you capture Bin Laden, i think he should get a pineapple up his ass every day at 4pm.

[rjs246]

I don't believe that simply because our enemies are willing the torture that we also should be willing to torture. Research has shown repeatedly that torture doesn't produce helpful information. It produces information that will lead to the torture being stopped.

But even leaving that aside, I don't want to be represented by a government that would torture its enemies. There is a long history of human atrocity at the hands of governments and a break with that history is part of the guiding principle of the Constitution. This country was founded in part by the idea that we could improve upon past governments. Part of that improvement was a moral objection to torturing our enemies and we abided by that ideal for several hundred years. Now, suddenly, torturing our enemies is vital to protecting our country? I don't buy it and I'm saddened that the country I was raised to revere as a more perfect form of government has sunk to those depths and that there are people who are okay with it because they are so scared of some mystery boogeyman that they are willing to sacrifice their country's pride.

People are always going to dislike the US. There will always be someone, somewhere who would like to attack and kill Americans. How we defend against that and prepare for it says more about us and our strength as a country than anything. For the past 8 years what we've said is, 'We don't give a shtein about our own stated rules and beliefs. Keeping another plane from flying into a building is more important than our standing in the world as a moral and righteous country and in fact is more important than everything that we stand for.' That may be fine for some people, but with the world's largest and most well-trained military, my faith in the government's ability to protect me without torture is extremely high.

[rjs246]

I firmly belive Torture is wrong, but if you capture Bin Laden, i think he should get a pineapple up his ass every day at 4pm.

Maybe that wouldn't be torture for him. ever think about that, smart guy?

[Butchers Bill]

the people who would cut an americans head off would do it anyway....but what about people who would hold an american and not normally torture but figure since the US signs off on it we will do it to

And who would those people be?  The North Koreans tortured the air crew from the downed spy plane a few years ago, the Vietnamese tortured, the Russians tortured our troops from Korea and Vietnam, the Germans, the Japanese...just who has treated US prisoners the way the US has treated its prisoners?  Three square meals a day with special dietary and religious menus, quality healthcare, religious freedom...the list goes on.

you really think the only people an american could ever be held by would be a psychotic dome chopping muslim

Certainly not as mentioned above.

also dont you think there are countries around the world that will use the same viewpoint that youre espousing "well america is going to torture us anyway so we should torture americans"

or are we the only ones that can have that perspective?

As I said, any Nation has the right to protect it's civilian population from a mass casualty event.  If Iran found an American agent with plans for a suitcase nuke to go off in Tehran, you bet I would expect that person to be tortured for more information and would have no problem with them doing it.  But we don't do that...there are people out there willing to do it to us. 

I am amazed at what some of the left and ACLU is calling torture though.  Loud music, bugs, barking dogs, lack of sleep...come the farg on.

[Butchers Bill]

I don't believe that simply because our enemies are willing the torture that we also should be willing to torture. Research has shown repeatedly that torture doesn't produce helpful information. It produces information that will lead to the torture being stopped.

So you have just captured a person who had information on them relating to an imminent nuclear attack on Washington D.C..  What would you do?

[Seabiscuit36]

I firmly belive Torture is wrong, but if you capture Bin Laden, i think he should get a pineapple up his ass every day at 4pm.

Maybe that wouldn't be torture for him. ever think about that, smart guy?

Hitler didnt mind

[hbionic]

So you have just captured a person who had information on them relating to an imminent nuclear attack on Washington D.C..  What would you do?

threaten them with anal. So much that it will turn them gay. Worst case scenario, if they dont talk, at least you will have some guaranteed ass to tap.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

I don't believe that simply because our enemies are willing the torture that we also should be willing to torture. Research has shown repeatedly that torture doesn't produce helpful information. It produces information that will lead to the torture being stopped.

So you have just captured a person who had information on them relating to an imminent nuclear attack on Washington D.C..  What would you do?

Ask him nicely to divulge the information.  If he does not, use taxpayer dollars give him a fair trail and if convicted, keep a roof over his head and keep him clothed/fed until he dies peacefully of natural causes.

[ice grillin you]

So you have just captured a person who had information on them relating to an imminent nuclear attack on Washington D.C..  What would you do?

lol....you read to many tom clancy books

but if it makes you happy yes i would allow the torture of someone if it means saving the entire city of washington dc from a nuclear attack

[PhillyPhanInDC]

do you really believe that if we were to put the "enemy combatants" up in the Borgata versus Gitmo our troops would be treated any differently if they were captured??  They would have their heads cut off just as fast either way.

You are missing the point. Part of what our troops are fighting and dying for is the ideal that America and Americans stand for something completely different than what goes on in these countries, or what is done by our enemies.

The point that people like you miss, is that by doing these things, torturing and locking people up and presuming them guilty for years on end without a fair trial, is in away, self-defeat. Proving that the values and ideals we profess to the world are nothing but falsehoods is more important to extremists and rogue states than taking and holding land. If they can shift the opinion of the populace that America, it's troops, and it's policies say, "Do as we say, not as we do", they have won on a plain that is not fully recognized by people who sit far away and make uniformed statements like, "Well if we treat them nice, they will still treat us bad." Of course they will, it's the point. They are worse than we are, we are better than they are. We have the moral high ground.

I don't understand it. You don't want to to be thought as similar to the people. Why is that hard to understand? You are an American (I think), it should be ingrained into your moral fabric. The thought of Americans torturing enemies should cause revulsion and anger. Where you got the idea that it's okay to go for the "eye for an eye" line of reasoning shows a need for you to better understand the bedrock and ideals this country has been founded on.

[rjs246]

I don't believe that simply because our enemies are willing the torture that we also should be willing to torture. Research has shown repeatedly that torture doesn't produce helpful information. It produces information that will lead to the torture being stopped.

So you have just captured a person who had information on them relating to an imminent nuclear attack on Washington D.C..  What would you do?

Are you suggesting that this is a regular occurrence? That this one-time-in-the-history-of-the-world type event where you have someone in custody and you already know that they have information about a nuclear attack is enough to justify a general acceptance of torture?

Give me a break. You are using a fantasy world, espionage novel example to justify torture. I'm talking about a government that tortured members of a terrorist organization that hides in the wilderness and straps dynamite to retards. Oh no! They're shipping exploding retards over to US soil by the thousands! We're in so much danger! Better torture someone about it.