06/07 Phillies Offseason Thread

[mpmcgraw]

Batting average doesn't count either?!?!?!?!  Man, I have been living in the farging dark ages.  I'm so ashamed. 

I see you are using the 'I dont have any argument so if I keep using hyperboles and exaggerate everything you are saying maybe I wont come off as a total idiot!' approach. 

Good for you.

[mpmcgraw]

[quote author=PhillyPhreak54 link=topic=19027.msg477265#msg477265 date=1165543087

Jesus. Strikeouts are bad. No matter what type of alphabet soup type stat you can come up with it doesn't matter because strikeouts are bad any way you cut it.

When Patty K's looking with runners on 2nd and 3rd it means more than when he draws a walk. When you put the ball in play you have a shot to drive runners in. When you swing and miss you do not.

It ain't rocket science. There is such a thing as being too in love with stats and you're an example, man.

Yes, putting the ball in play is better obviously, but its not as drastic as you think.

A batter striking out a lot does not discount the high % of walks a player brings to a team or the power a player brings to a team.

"Yea well he strikes out a lot' is a stupid argument.  Would I take a player who strikes out less who is similiar to Burrell over Burrell?  Hell yes.  But strikeouts ARE NOT THAT BAD. 

[Sgt PSN]

I will trade the strikeouts for his patience at the plate every day of the week.

So when he gets caught looking at strike 3 he's just being patient? Got it.  All this time I thought he was sucking. 

It's a flaw in his game. You can choose to live with it and take his other qualities that obviously help the team or you can dwell on it and have the memory of him constantly throwing his ass out overwhelm everything good you see him do for the team.

It's a flaw?  A flaw?  A farging flaw?  Are you kidding me?  Not being able bunt consistantly is a flaw.  Not being able to get the bat off your shoulders is a farging tragedy.  And then to make up for all his strikeouts, when he does decide to swing the bat he's getting on base 25% of the time. 

Every aspect of Burrell's game is flawed you farging nitwit.  There isn't a single thing he does well except strike out. 

[mpmcgraw]

I will trade the strikeouts for his patience at the plate every day of the week.

So when he gets caught looking at strike 3 he's just being patient? Got it.  All this time I thought he was sucking. 

It's a flaw in his game. You can choose to live with it and take his other qualities that obviously help the team or you can dwell on it and have the memory of him constantly throwing his ass out overwhelm everything good you see him do for the team.

It's a flaw?  A flaw?  A farging flaw?  Are you kidding me?  Not being able bunt consistantly is a flaw.  Not being able to get the bat off your shoulders is a farging tragedy.  And then to make up for all his strikeouts, when he does decide to swing the bat he's getting on base 25% of the time. 

Every aspect of Burrell's game is flawed you farging nitwit.  There isn't a single thing he does well except strike out. 

He has good power.

He walks a lot.

He causes the pitcher to throw a lot of pitches.

Right there, three simple things that are big parts of the game. 

[PhillyPhreak54]

I will trade the strikeouts for his patience at the plate every day of the week.

So when he gets caught looking at strike 3 he's just being patient? Got it.  All this time I thought he was sucking. 

It's a flaw in his game. You can choose to live with it and take his other qualities that obviously help the team or you can dwell on it and have the memory of him constantly throwing his ass out overwhelm everything good you see him do for the team.

It's a flaw?  A flaw?  A farging flaw?  Are you kidding me?  Not being able bunt consistantly is a flaw.  Not being able to get the bat off your shoulders is a farging tragedy.  And then to make up for all his strikeouts, when he does decide to swing the bat he's getting on base 25% of the time. 

Every aspect of Burrell's game is flawed you farging nitwit.  There isn't a single thing he does well except strike out. 

He has good power.

He walks a lot.

He causes the pitcher to throw a lot of pitches.

Right there, three simple things that are big parts of the game. 

Sometimes I wonder if you do this just to be a contrarian. Because if you really believe what you write then I wonder what the hell is going through your head.

If the guy has a poor batting average and strikes out a lot it cancels out that stuff you just wrote! Who gives a shtein if he causes a pitcher to throw a lot of pitches?!?!? If he can't make a pitcher PAY after making him work it means NOTHING. So Pat will work a full count, foul off two or three and have a 8-9 pitch AB. But then he does the Burrell Shuffle when he sees a biting slider on the outside part of the plate and he WALKS back to the goddamn dugout and SEES the runners he left on base.

He's garbage.

[mpmcgraw]

What?

Striking out a lot and having a league average BA does not cancel out having exceptional power and the ability to get on base.  Getting on base more means that Burrell makes less outs than most players which means Utley and Howard get more at bats with Burrell in the lineup than they would with the league average player.  Walks are awesome if you realize how much they help the team in different ways. 

Making the pitcher work is important.  If the pitcher is dominating, players like Burrell and Abreu help get them out of the game quicker even if they are not necessarily having successful days, which is very valuable.

Strikeouts are not as terrible as you are making them out to be.

[PhillyPhreak54]

No shtein making the pitchers work is important.

But that quality does not supersede what the batter actually does with his at bat.

If he makes a pitcher throw 10 pitches and then K's with RISP - bad.
If he goes up there and swings first pitch with RISP and gets a hit knocking in both - good

You place too much importance on things that don't mean much when a player is a .250 hitter and strikes out too much.

[Sgt PSN]

Dude, kill yourself.  Usually I say that stuff in a half hearted, joking manner.  But this time I'm really serious.  Play in traffic, jump off a building, swallow some rat poison or whatever you're comfortable with.  Just end it and end it now before you start breeding. 

[mpmcgraw]

No shtein making the pitchers work is important.

But that quality does not supersede what the batter actually does with his at bat.

If he makes a pitcher throw 10 pitches and then K's with RISP - bad.
If he goes up there and swings first pitch with RISP and gets a hit knocking in both - good

You place too much importance on things that don't mean much when a player is a .250 hitter and strikes out too much.

You dont place enough importance on the most important aspects of the game.  You are being simple minded.

Whatever.  All the stats agree with me. 

This is not football where you can manipulate the stats to fit your argument.  A strawman argument is easy to identify in baseball, that's why I love it. 

Fact:  Burrell is above average.
Fact:  Rowand is average
Fact:  Hitting for power, getting on base, and providing good at bats for your team are more important than K's and batting average. 

[PhillyPhreak54]

No shtein making the pitchers work is important.

But that quality does not supersede what the batter actually does with his at bat.

If he makes a pitcher throw 10 pitches and then K's with RISP - bad.
If he goes up there and swings first pitch with RISP and gets a hit knocking in both - good

You place too much importance on things that don't mean much when a player is a .250 hitter and strikes out too much.

You dont place enough importance on the most important aspects of the game.  You are being simple minded.

Whatever.  All the stats agree with me. 

This is not football where you can manipulate the stats to fit your argument.  A strawman argument is easy to identify in baseball, that's why I love it. 

Fact:  Burrell is above average.
Fact:  Rowand is average
Fact:  Hitting for power, getting on base, and providing good at bats for your team are more important than K's and batting average. 

Being simple minded in some instances is not a bad thing. And in this case it is not. See the ball, hit the ball. It's that simple. And it's also something your boy Pat struggles with. You come up with all of these sabremetric stats to try to support your argument and they all blow.

I do not favor the Moneyball style. I'm about the old school way of baseball. Watch the game and see how guys play. Take the spreadsheets and projections and VORP's and cram 'em. I want a guy who produces and Pat Burrell does not.

[mpmcgraw]

This isnt even sabrmetrics, its below that. 

Its basics of the game. 

You win by getting on base.

Pat Burrell gets on base.

[PhillyPhreak54]

So what? What does Pat Burrell do when guys are on base ahead of him? That is what matters because it is his job to drive in runs!

Your OBP argument I'd buy if we're talking about a slap hitting leadoff guy or a 2, 7 or 8 hole guy. But we aren't. We're talking about a $50M supposed run producer and he doesn't produce runs by driving them in.

[mpmcgraw]

Forget all of the expectations that Wade and his goonies slapped on him.  Forget that he was a #1 pick.

Pat Burrell the player is above average.   

[Rome]

Batting average is a terrible way of judging and player dont even try to suggest that it is valid.

I didn't even bother reading past this ridiculous farging sentence.

[Geowhizzer]

If Burrell were a top-of-the-order hitter whose primary job was to get on base, he'd be OK.

Burrell's job is, as the 5th-slot hitter (and often 4th in the past) is to DRIVE in runs.

Burrell has hit 100+ RBI exactly twice.

Burrell has hit 30+ home runs exactly twice.

I'm not getting into your pissing match, but I'm not overly satisfied with Burrell's performance over the course of his career.  For what he needs to bring to the team in his batting slot, Burrell has been above-average twice, average two or three seasons, and below average one or two seasons.

It's the leadoff hitter's job to take walks and see pitches to wear down the pitcher.

Those things are nice in a 5th slot hitter- if he's doing his primary job.  Burrell has not done that, in my opinion, enough.