Phillies Offseason Talk

[Rome]

Good riddance to Wagner and his zesty attitude.

They're better off using the money elsewhere.

They need a starter, a third baseman, a catcher, a centerfielder, middle relief and they need to resolve the Thome/Howard situation, yet their primary focus has been on re-signing a guy who has publically torched the team and its fans ever since he got here?

Now he's using the Phillies for leverage with the Mets to get a better contract.

Wonderful.

It's wholly fricken ridiculous that we're even discussing that bum at this point.

Move on, Pat.  MOVE ON.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Get BJ Ryan!

[PhillyPhreak54]

Romey, you gotta help me out here. Why the hate for Billy Wagner? He's just playing the wine & dine FA game. Everyone uses other teams for leverage. Remember the Eagles about to sign Fred Thomas and he literally snuck out a back door to go back to NO for more money?

As for the Thome news....GET IT DONE.

Aaron Rowand is a very nice player and I'd take McCarthy or Contreras.

[rjs246]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Rowan just be another .270-.290 hitter who strikes out way too much and doesn't ever walk? Prototypical Phillie!

[PhillyPhreak54]

Rowand is a younger guy (28) who is a career .283 hitter. He did strike out 116 times last year but he has some speed and he is a very good CF.

Pat Gillick puts a lot on stock into defense and Rowand can cover some big time ground out there. Plus he is the ideal 2 or 6 hole hitter, something the Phils need.

Jayson Stark was just on ESPNews and had a Wagner update...

Said that he knows Billy Wags and he is not a NY kind of guy. He said that the Mets offered or will offer him a 3-year $30M deal today and the Phillies will match that. He did say that the Mets will not hesitate to go for the 4th year because he is their #1 target and that the union will pressure him to take the big time contract but he just doesn't know if Wags will go to NY.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

The more I think about giving Wags a 4th year, the more I feel ill.

[PhillyPhreak54]

If the Mets go to 4 years the Phils will not match that I'm pretty sure. I wouldn't give him 4 either. I give him 3 at $30 thats it.

If he goes to NY for 4-40 then we go after Ryan.

[Rome]

Jay,

I can't stand Wagner because he's yet another in a long line of players who have a big mouth but who seem to fail when the pressure is the greatest.

My biggest problem with signing Wagner has nothing to do with him in all honesty.  I simply think the Phillies have other area of concern where the 10 million could go to improve the club.  If the Phillies have a legitimate third baseman and centerfielder playing instead of a hack like Bell and a nobody like Jason Michaels, their chances to compete in 2006 are far greater than they would be if they chose to spend it on a guy like Wagner who is one pitch away from ripping his arm to shreds.

The guy will be 34 years old in July.  Do you really want to invest upwards of forty million dollars over four seasons on a 34 year-old closer with a bad attitude and a history of arm trouble?

Not this fool, I assure you.


(Edited - I said 11 million, meant 10- sorry.) 

[Rome]

BTW: I would go after Ryan regardless.  No way it takes 40M to sign him but even if he did, I'd rather go with a guy who will be 30 next year instead of 34.

[PhillyPhreak54]

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But truthfully, what he says doesn't bother me. He's only been here 2 years and he's obviously not from Philly. I don't think he quite knew what the deal was here and how frustrated the fan base was. I think this year opened his eyes a little. And I'm sure he knows that in NY the pressure is 100 times than what it is in Philly.

And they can address the other areas of need without worrying about the money given to Wags.

Once they trade Thome and if they trade Abreu that frees up about $26M this year (roughly $13M for each guy in 2005).

So if they sign Wags for $10M this year they'll have money to play with. And they'll also be getting players in return when they trade Thome and Abreu.

I wouldn't give him $40M over 4. But I'd give him 3 years 30M.

[Rome]

If they trade Thome, they'll still have to pay the lionshare of his contract, right?  Although the payroll budget will go down significantly in terms of base numbers, they'll still be paying Thome's contract out of pocket, so effectively, they won't be saving anything on him.

Trading Abreu is wishful thinking, IMO.  Yes, he's a good player and yes he's relatively affordable considering the idiotic contracts they're paying professionals these days but scouts aren't stupid.  They're going to see the same kind of lazy ass effort on the field from Abreu as we do.  They'll see the strikeouts and the crappy production from him in innings 7-9, so getting anyone of merit for him is a longshot.

Patricia, on the other hand, might bring equal talent.  He certainly would bring more than Abreu, but even so, the salaries would have to wash, right?  Well, whatever he's making this year wouldn't equate to a frontline starter in this market.  A combination of him and a Gavin Floyd might bring you an ace but considering how tight-fisted the Phillies are about giving up mediocre former first round draft choices, I wouldn't bet on them doing that deal either.

Look, I'm fine with Abreu and Patsy sticking here.  I'm fine with Rollins, Howard, and Chase too but that leaves three everyday players plus an ace to come up with.  IMO, getting guys who play everyday instead of an inning every second or third day is way more important.  Getting a front-line, no-doubt-about-it ace who can carry the team and provide the other starters with a model with which to follow is equally as important.

The team simply has too many question marks @ more important positions than closer to piss all that money away on one guy, especially someone who isn't sold on being here in the first place.  If he were, this conversation would be moot.

[BigEd76]

hmm

[PhillyPhreak54]

Well, the rumor was if the Phillies take Jose Contreras then the White Sox will pick up 2/3rd's of Thome's contract.

And I still say that regardless of who you sign if you do not have a closer then you might as well just pack it in. You can have studs in the field, studs at the plate and a stud starting staff but if your back end of the BP is garbage you're done. You need a good closer.

Trading Abreu is wishful thinking, IMO.  Yes, he's a good player and yes he's relatively affordable considering the idiotic contracts they're paying professionals these days but scouts aren't stupid.  They're going to see the same kind of lazy ass effort on the field from Abreu as we do.  They'll see the strikeouts and the crappy production from him in innings 7-9, so getting anyone of merit for him is a longshot.

See this is where the Abreu haters are wrong. The scouts see a good ballplayer and a guy who is a very good hitter. When you read national articles or listen to national radio and analysts they all sing the praises of Bobby because he is a good ballplayer. But in Philadelphia he is regarded as a lazy bum who sucks. The guy is widely regarded as a top notch player, Romey. Regardless of what is said about him in this town, he is a guy that many teams will take. That's why the Phils are discussing trading him...because he is a commodity on the open market.

Patty Cakes, while I wouldn't be opposed to trading him or Abreu, I think has a better shot of sticking around because he is a RH hitter. Their line-up is way to olH Heavy as it is now so they wouldn't trade him unless they got another RH power bat in return.

And how do you know he isn't sold on being here. I've heard him say numerous times that he loves his teammates and wants to stay in Philadelphia. You cannot fault the guy for playing the free agency game. The union puts pressure on the players to do that.

As for getting that top-of-the-line-ace.....there ain't too many of those guys out there, Romey. And there is not any of them available in free agency. A.J Burnett? Please. He's a fraud. He is the only guy out there in free agency. SO if you want an ace, it'll have to be acquired via blockbuster trade.

Bottom line...Wagner needs to be here.

And Comcast just said that the Mets will go after BJ Ryan if Wags comes back to PHL. And they said that even if the Mets sign Wags they will go after Ryan to be Wags' set-up guy.

Ryan was visiting Cleveland today, by the way.

One more point on Wags...you have to look at more than just this year salary-wise. This year they are handcuffed because Bell and Lieberthal are still on the payroll. Next year those losers are gone. So the Phillies can afford him and still address other spots.

[Rome]

I know what I see every time I watch Abreu, Jay.

You seem to forget that I watch almost every single Phillies game on the computer.  I've seen him play hundreds of times in my life, and my opinion is, he's a good player, period.

We differ there.  So be it.

[SD_Eagle5]

See this is where the Abreu haters are wrong. The scouts see a good ballplayer and a guy who is a very good hitter. When you read national articles or listen to national radio and analysts they all sing the praises of Bobby because he is a good ballplayer. But in Philadelphia he is regarded as a lazy bum who sucks. The guy is widely regarded as a top notch player, Romey. Regardless of what is said about him in this town, he is a guy that many teams will take. That's why the Phils are discussing trading him...because he is a commodity on the open market.

He is a good all around ballplayer but at times it looks like he lacks hustle. I've never had a problem with Abreu aside from his lack of clutch hits. It's hard to imagine a team not wanting a 290.-300.BA, 25-30 HR, 100 RBI, 900.OPS guy with speed and a great arm.  His 2005 salary ($13,100,000) is steep but his stats are pretty consistent so teams know they're not getting a bum.