2009 Phillies Offseason Thread

[Eagles_Legendz]

Aumont and Gillies aren't garbage.  You're acting like we traded for Bud Smith, Nelson Figueroa and CJ Henry...

they are less than what the phils gave for lee


and stark was on the scott van pelt show yesetrday saying money was definitely the main factor in getting rid of lee...both because of their strict 140 number and because they still want to have money to upgrade the pen

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove09/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=4746360

Stark said this in his article:

"But if this were just about 2010, the Phillies probably wouldn't make this trade. Or they'd make the Halladay deal, keep Lee, clear payroll space by unloading Joe Blanton and unleash both Cy Youngs on the world.

Except that wasn't their MO. This was about extending their window of NL dominance as long as possible, not for one brief run at glory.

If they'd stood pat, Lee almost certainly would have headed off next winter to hit the free-agent lottery. And they'd most likely have gotten outbid by the Yankees or Red Sox on Halladay. So without either Lee or Halladay, the Phillies very conceivably might have had to blow up their team and retool."

As I said before.  If it was about $, they would have dumped Blanton.  It really isn't hard to figure out.  If you disagree with that, you're just being argumentative.

this makes no sense...no one anywhere is suggesting they should have done nothing...a lot of people are saying they should have kept lee AND traded for halladay

think about what youre saying...youre trying to say that the phillies would not have traded for halladay if they couldnt have gotten gillies and aumont

that is so ridiculous it cant even be taken seriously

That is a quote from Stark not me, so someone is suggesting it actually.  And yes I do believe the Phillies wouldn't have made the deal if they weren't getting some sort of prospects back.  That's the only reason to move Lee and not Blanton.

[Eagles_Legendz]

supposedly one of the players in the deal failed his physical.  press conference is now tomorrow

It never ends.  Jesus.

[MDS]

Scouts we surveyed were split on whether the prospects exiting (Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis d'Arnaud) have a higher ceiling than the prospects arriving (Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and J.C. Ramirez). But the whole group is "a bunch of legit prospects," said one NL scout. "They're not just throwing in a bunch of names to make this look good."

So while the Phillies still have bullpen issues to address, "I like this deal a lot for the Phillies, long-term and short-term," said an AL scout. "They got the best pitcher in the game right now. And they got a couple of guys from Seattle [Aumont and Gillies] I'm surprised they could get."

from stark

so....with all the people you talked to igy and all the scouting youve done, do you have a counter?

i hate it when loud mouth idiot fans act like they know anything about minor leagues. no ones anything. its a farging guesswork game.

knapp donald carrasco marson were "legit" prospects...and we all know how bad the phils raped cleveland...now the phils had the same thing done to them but its a great deal...homer haven is a wonderful place

i never said its a great deal. we wont know how great or bad the deal is a few years. but to suggest that you know these prospects arent as good as the guys the phils gave up is insane.

you dont know any better than my shaft knows. you might read in baseball america that some wrriter that saw taylor play 1 game is alsobbering on him. amazing. all of these guys are wildcards. s

[ice grillin you]

i dont care whos suggesting it....its beyond ridiculous

they wouldnt have traded for halladay if they couldnt have moved lee or blanton sure...but it had nothing to do with getting prospects that was a by product of trading lee but not the reason they did it...they couldnt move blanton...

i mean i know amaro is dumb but i cant even believe hed be that stupid to only have done all this because of those prospects

and i dont even care because if they had gotten lee and halladay karma would have sunk them...im speaking from an on paper perspective and for all the people that are wondering why you wouldnt keep lee and halladay for one year to go all out for a series...and if the reason youre not going hard for a world series in 2010 is those mariner prospects then thats a fireable offense

if its because of money which everyone knows it is then thats pretty sad too..but a hell of a lot more tolerable than some guys named aumont and gillies

Scouts we surveyed were split on whether the prospects exiting (Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis d'Arnaud) have a higher ceiling than the prospects arriving (Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and J.C. Ramirez). But the whole group is "a bunch of legit prospects," said one NL scout. "They're not just throwing in a bunch of names to make this look good."

So while the Phillies still have bullpen issues to address, "I like this deal a lot for the Phillies, long-term and short-term," said an AL scout. "They got the best pitcher in the game right now. And they got a couple of guys from Seattle [Aumont and Gillies] I'm surprised they could get."

from stark

so....with all the people you talked to igy and all the scouting youve done, do you have a counter?

i hate it when loud mouth idiot fans act like they know anything about minor leagues. no ones anything. its a farging guesswork game.

knapp donald carrasco marson were "legit" prospects...and we all know how bad the phils raped cleveland...now the phils had the same thing done to them but its a great deal...homer haven is a wonderful place

i never said its a great deal. we wont know how great or bad the deal is a few years. but to suggest that you know these prospects arent as good as the guys the phils gave up is insane.

you dont know any better than my shaft knows. you might read in baseball america that some wrriter that saw taylor play 1 game is alsobbering on him. amazing. all of these guys are wildcards. s

there isnt anyone on the planet that doesnt have the phillie prospects rated way higher than the mariner ones...no one...none...zero...zilch...like i said everyone is putting aumont and gillies as slightly less of a package than what the phils gave for lee last summer...now we all laughed our asses off at cleveland last year you have to not be homerish and call it as you see it now and say the phils were stupid

well you dont have to...but you sound like jay talking about the eagles if you dont

[MDS]

i know what the "experts" have said it but it means nothing. youre going to have to trust rube that he got these guys because he knows theyre gonna be studs. its all you can do. and so no matter how you spin it, the verdict on this trade wont come down for a few years.

and they did the trade not for the mariner prospects, but to have a top of the rotation starter for the next 4 years. they thought halladay would be cheaper than lee. they were willing to give up drabek, taylor and d'mickface to get him. then, knowing they needed to replenish the farm system and thinking they can win the ws without lee, traded him to seattle to get 3 guys they really valued highly.

would i have traded lee? no. i roll the dice and go with all 3 for this year and collect my 2 first round picks next year via lee leaving. but this move isnt a lateral move. for the next 2 years they are now slightly better than they were before. if they win the world series this year or next year, the struggles that could arise in 13, 14, 15 will be fine. if they dont, then amaro will get run out of town and this decision will be his undoing.

but you cant think about 12, 13, etc. this move makes them better for 10 and 11. their window is 10 and 11. i get the feeling people dont like the phils putting an essential end date on this run but its a realistic approach.

[Eagles_Legendz]

If anyone wants to read the state of the farm system per Jayson Stark and the co-editor of baseball america:
http://www.philaphans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99319

Stark pretty much reiterates what most have been saying in that it's far less about the financial aspect of it than the prospect angle because they could have shed $9 million easily.  You can not like who they got back all you want but that's the reality of the situation.

[Eaglez]

At this point I'd much rather see a Halladay/Lee combo for an entire year than trying to upgrade the bullpen, etc.  Pull up some minor leaguers like basticho and Escalona and see what they can do for substantially less.  Halladay and Lee would give you 60-70 starts between them with 50 or so being quality starts and about 35-40 wins between them.  Would you really need an "upgraded" bullpen then? 

Oh well.  That's why I think this trade will always be bittersweet, because I can't get out of my head what might have been (even if the farm may have then been depleted). 

[ice grillin you]

to have a top of the rotation starter for the next 4 years.

they have this even if they keep lee for a year

[PhillyGirl]

So the Phillies win the WS or go back to it and lose a close one in 2010.

Does Cliff Lee look here to sign as a FA? LOL

[SunMo]

physical failure was a false rumor.

5pm presser

[MDS]

lee is going to go the highest bidder.

him pitching well and doing so in the postseason should he have stayed here would have sent his price to santana/cc area. the phills saved, what, 5 mil per year by getting halladay? and they have roy for just 4 years, not lee for 6 or 7. thats the logic behind the move.

again, this move makes them better for 10 and 11. the lee moves saves some kind of face on the farm system and how effective that trade is will be determined in the playoffs should happ or blanton not be able to pitch quality games and when these prospects eventually pan out.

[Drunkmasterflex]

i know what the "experts" have said it but it means nothing. youre going to have to trust rube that he got these guys because he knows theyre gonna be studs. its all you can do. and so no matter how you spin it, the verdict on this trade wont come down for a few years.

I don't think you have to wait a few years, if they win a WS in the next year or two with Halladay being a horse its a win.

[ice grillin you]

i know what the "experts" have said it but it means nothing. youre going to have to trust rube that he got these guys because he knows theyre gonna be studs. its all you can do. and so no matter how you spin it, the verdict on this trade wont come down for a few years.

I don't think you have to wait a few years, if they win a WS in the next year or two with Halladay being a horse its a win.

exactly...however if they just miss out in 2010 like they did in 2009 the organization is going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why they didnt go with lee for a year.....and telling the fans that "well at least we have aumont and gillies" isnt going to cut it

and god forbid they dont go anywhere cause hamels continues to be a bitch and they are left with no number 2 then all hell is gonna break lose

lee is going to go the highest bidder.

him pitching well and doing so in the postseason should he have stayed here would have sent his price to santana/cc area. the phills saved, what, 5 mil per year by getting halladay? and they have roy for just 4 years, not lee for 6 or 7. thats the logic behind the move.

you just dont get it and never will...nowhere did anyone say they should have signed lee long term

[Drunkmasterflex]

If Cole comes back and is the pitcher he can be, losing Lee isn't nearly as big of a deal. 

[MDS]

i know what the "experts" have said it but it means nothing. youre going to have to trust rube that he got these guys because he knows theyre gonna be studs. its all you can do. and so no matter how you spin it, the verdict on this trade wont come down for a few years.

I don't think you have to wait a few years, if they win a WS in the next year or two with Halladay being a horse its a win.

exactly...however if they just miss out in 2010 like they did in 2009 the organization is going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why they didnt go with lee for a year.....and telling the fans that "well at least we have aumont and gillies" isnt going to cut it

and god forbid they dont go anywhere cause hamels continues to be a bitch and they are left with no number 2 then all hell is gonna break lose

lee is going to go the highest bidder.

him pitching well and doing so in the postseason should he have stayed here would have sent his price to santana/cc area. the phills saved, what, 5 mil per year by getting halladay? and they have roy for just 4 years, not lee for 6 or 7. thats the logic behind the move.

you just dont get it and never will...nowhere did anyone say they should have signed lee long term

yo girl pg made a crack, i responded.

jesus dook we essentially agree youre just lookin for an agrument. its worth it if they win the ws, awful if they dont. no middle ground.