2009 Flyers Offseason Thread

[Rome]

I'm thinking of starting a discussion on the Von Hayes 5 for 1 trade in the Phillies thread.  Who's with me?

[ice grillin you]

Pronger isn't Norris trophy good anymore, he doesn't have the offensive numbers they look for. He's not top 5 either, I'd say top 10. You get a different element of a player with him, he's huge, makes players think when they have to skate into the Flyers zone, he's a very good passer, and has a rocket from the point.
As for plus/minus rating look at the Ducks to find your answer, the teams decline has more to do with that then the individual player. 2-3 years after he won the Norris St. Louis was terrible and he was a minus 1, are you going to tell me that was all his fault? He was elite elite at that point, definitely top 5. Even 5-6 years ago I'd question this trade, you don't give up that many picks and a promising defenseman for 1 player, now that he's 35 the move was just flat out retarded, because his play can only decline from this point on.

He's as good as ever

thats what i was referring to....if hes as good as ever then hes the best dman in the league and norris trophy caliber since hes accomplished both those things in the distant past

FYI - Bouwmeester, Niedermayer, Kaberle, Phaneuf all had a minus +/- last season.

youre making the exact point im making...none of those above players are that good and would win the flyers a cup....cept bomeester i wouldnt have traded sbisa straight up for any of them much less what the flyers gave

+/- is the VORP of hockey. 

no it isnt and you know this....is it as valuable as goals hell no...but it definitely means something where as vorp was made up last week by some moneyball nerd...

my point isnt to say that +/- is a determination of how good a defenseman is...i just dont think youre a great defenseman if youre on a good team and cant even pull a plus one

[Sgt PSN]

I'm thinking of starting a discussion on the Von Hayes 5 for 1 trade in the Phillies thread.  Who's with me?

what was von's vorp?  i must know this before deciding whether or not i wish to engage in such a discussion. 

[Seabiscuit36]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rISd-dgMaJM
Boner

Is he as good as he was 3 years ago, i dont think so, is he as physical yes.  They gave wayyyy too much up to get him, but dont discount what he's gonna bring physically, which this team needed last year.  Alberts was probably the most physical hitter.  I love the top 4 D pairings now, and if you can get rid of Jones, i'd be even happier. 

his +/- in the playoffs last season was +4 -1 in a short exit last year, plus 10 For Edmonton the cup run year, and plus 10 for the Ducks when they won the cup

[Eagaholic]

so it sounds like they are making a big push to win now but probably don't have the goalie to back it up, and there's still the question of signing him longer term which I'd think would make the deal a fiasco if they can't.

at least there's this

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/postedsports/archive/2009/05/05/pronger-ott-voted-nhl-s-dirtiest-players-in-poll.aspx

[Rome]

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

[ice grillin you]

so it sounds like they are making a big push to win now

yes

but probably don't have the team to back it up

yes

[SD_Eagle5]

He's as good as ever

thats what i was referring to....if hes as good as ever then hes the best dman in the league and norris trophy caliber since hes accomplished both those things in the distant past

Fine I'll retract that statement, he's still a darn good player but he's not the elite cream of the crop player he once was. Going off of Ducks fans opinion of him he hasn't declined in the 3 years he's been with them. I'll take their word for it over anyone elses because they've watched him play every game. They're still holding out hope he doesn't sign long term with the Flyers cause they want him back. Link.

FYI - Bouwmeester, Niedermayer, Kaberle, Phaneuf all had a minus +/- last season.

youre making the exact point im making...none of those above players are that good and would win the flyers a cup....cept bomeester i wouldnt have traded sbisa straight up for any of them much less what the flyers gave

Prongers a better player than those I listed. I'd maybe say Phaneuf is comparable talent wise even though he had a down year. And ALL of those players would help the Flyers in their quest for the cup, nothing is guaranteed of course but to say they're not closer adding any of those players is ridiculous.


+/- has some merit but he was a minus 2 a few years after winning the Norris trophy. It has more to do with the team than it does the player. For instance, Anaheim only scored 7 more goals than they gave up last season, that doesn't scream large plus/minus stats for anyone on their team...especially not for a guy that was consistently paired against the best forwards.

[Eagaholic]

Do they even have enough money to sign him long term without shortchanging themselves elsewhere? I don't know about next year but I thought I heard they don't have much room left for '09.

[SD_Eagle5]

so it sounds like they are making a big push to win now but probably don't have the goalie to back it up

I've always had a boner for Pronger, but if you're going to swing that kind of young talent you do it for an elite goalie. Elite goalies can steal a series (see MAF in last years playoffs) good defenseman can't.

[ice grillin you]

yeah it wouldnt suprise me in the least if the flyers were only just as good or even worse than last year (wouldnt suprise me if they were better either)...and not because pronger isnt a very good defenseman but they are suspect up front and have a huge questionmark in goal...and this is why the pronger move is epically bad...because you gave up a huge chunk of the future to possibly win a playoff round or two...if you give up what they gave up you better be dead set at every other position on the team except what pronger brings

after that trade we should all be sitting here saying the flyers are the favorites for the cup or at bare minimum the favorites in the east...and we arent even close to that...even the people who love the trade cant say they think the flyers are cup favorites or even on the short list and imo its inexcusable to give up what they did and not be in that position

[Seabiscuit36]

yeah it wouldnt suprise me in the least if the flyers were only just as good or even worse than last year (wouldnt suprise me if they were better either)...and not because pronger isnt a very good defenseman but they are suspect up front and have a huge questionmark in goal...and this is why the pronger move is epically bad...because you gave up a huge chunk of the future to possibly win a playoff round or two...if you give up what they gave up you better be dead set at every other position on the team except what pronger brings

after that trade we should all be sitting here saying the flyers are the favorites for the cup or at bare minimum the favorites in the east...and we arent even close to that...even the people who love the trade cant say they think the flyers are cup favorites or even on the short list and imo its inexcusable to give up what they did and not be in that position

It's all about Emery this year.  

[ice grillin you]

i knew youd like that

[Seabiscuit36]

i knew youd like that

you know me so well.  And i dont think they have a shot at winning, does it make them better this year than they were going into the draft, certainly.  But i dont think they have a true shot at a cup unless Emery plays out of his mind. 

FWIW, Biron probably had the largest miscalculation for a FA i've ever seen.  He wanted 5 million a year for 3 years, and now wont get a starting job, and is looking at maybe getting 1.5 per year.  What a douche. 

[SD_Eagle5]

I wish they could have signed him and Emery on the cheap and let them fight it out for the #1 spot.

My money says Emery keeps his act in check but only plays okay.