Political Hippo Circle Jerk - America, farg YEAH!

[Munson]

Bruh....learn what an actual 'safe space' is before trying to bring it into an argument.

If you can figure out why language and rhetoric matter as it pertains to contributing to both individual and systemic racism, you prob shouldn't bring up 'micro aggressions' either.

Safe space defined:

"A Safe Space is a place where anyone can relax and be able to fully express, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, religious affiliation, age, or physical or mental ability."

http://safespacenetwork.tumblr.com/Safespace

Although, I would probably add, "As long as you agree with that person.  Otherwise they are a racist".

In terms of your comment regarding rhetoric, that's exactly my point.  Words matter.  When you are trying to win an election against someone who isn't even qualified for ANY public office, you need to build a consensus, not drive people away by labeling them deplorable and racist.  It's as if Hillary forgot how to politician.

I know plenty of people who support Trump and not one of them are racist.  I know plenty of people who support Hillary and not one of them is a bad person.  All of them however agree that there is not a single unifying candidate in this election.

Yeeeah I wouldn't trust a tumblr account for that information. That is close to correct, but 'safe spaces' aren't about preventing people from disagreeing with you ever. They're generally used as places where people with common experiences, be it the victims of sexual assault, people of color, homosexuals, etc. can discuss issues that are meaningful to them without having to put up with people discounting their experiences, i.e. "well what were you wearing?" or "you're just imagining that white person locking their car door when you walk by", etc. The "safe" part of the whole thing is more for the victims of assault and rape other similar crimes who literally often have PTSD and get a little jumpy or upset when certain people or the things they say/way they say them prevent them from living an otherwise normal life. So called "safe spaces" are places for these people to go once in a while to escape that.

The difference is, words matter as it pertains to contributing to racist behavior, and the fact is "racist" and "racism" aren't your daddy's racism. When you're talking about this kind of racism, you're talking about systemic racism and racism as an ideology, not "omg I hate black people" racism. In other words, I'd say like 75% of the time I call someone racist or point out what they're saying/doing is racist, I'm not saying that said person actually hates, or dislikes, black people because they're black. I'm pointing out that they may have a little bit of an implicit bias that they should probably examine and see if there's a way to change that behavior, because it does contribute to systemic racism on the macro level. Think the cop in the helicopter saying "that looks like a bad dude". I would bet that cop probably isn't a 1950's, hate black people racist. But does his comment point to an implicit bias in police officers especially that view black people as more dangerous, which is ultimately leading to some really zesty and unjustified police shootings? Yeah, probably.

That's the rhetoric and language I worry about. I don't feel as bad about calling racists racist, or deplorable, or etc. And, just from a pure numbers aspect, Clinton's comment was probably right. Trump is probably going to get somewhere around 70 million voters in November. Half of them being so-called 'deplorables" would be around 35 million, so...what, 11-12% of the country? Yeah, I feel comfortable saying that, at minimum, 11-12% of the country is racist.

[Butchers Bill]

It's an old leftist trick that has been played time and time again.  Disagree with someone?  Scream racist at the top of your lungs until they cave.  This has been happening on college campuses for decades, but now it's seeping into the national discourse and it's a disturbing trend.

i can guarantee you to people of color its not as disturbing as a white supremacist winning the republican nomination

Again, words have meaning.  Hyperbole is strong with you isn't it.  Trump is a lot of things, but he isn't a white supremacist.  David Duke is a white supremacist (yeah, I know he "endorsed" Trump).

just for a second imagine the fear latinos are living in right now over the thought of a trump presidency...its so sad....

It's sad because it's an irrational fear driven by people like yourself.  What do you think Trump is planning for Latino Americans?  Rounding them up?  Death camps?  After all, he "hates" these citizens right?  Think he's got the gas chamber blueprints out of storage?

See this is what happens across America right now.  I (a non-Trump supporter) am trying to have a rational conversation with a racist, irrational person.  You put me into a position where I appear to be defending Trump, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Replace me with someone without the education or access to information I have and you wonder why Clinton isn't ahead by 50 points?

[Butchers Bill]

Bruh....learn what an actual 'safe space' is before trying to bring it into an argument.

If you can figure out why language and rhetoric matter as it pertains to contributing to both individual and systemic racism, you prob shouldn't bring up 'micro aggressions' either.

Safe space defined:

"A Safe Space is a place where anyone can relax and be able to fully express, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, religious affiliation, age, or physical or mental ability."

http://safespacenetwork.tumblr.com/Safespace

Although, I would probably add, "As long as you agree with that person.  Otherwise they are a racist".

In terms of your comment regarding rhetoric, that's exactly my point.  Words matter.  When you are trying to win an election against someone who isn't even qualified for ANY public office, you need to build a consensus, not drive people away by labeling them deplorable and racist.  It's as if Hillary forgot how to politician.

I know plenty of people who support Trump and not one of them are racist.  I know plenty of people who support Hillary and not one of them is a bad person.  All of them however agree that there is not a single unifying candidate in this election.

Yeeeah I wouldn't trust a tumblr account for that information. That is close to correct, but 'safe spaces' aren't about preventing people from disagreeing with you ever. They're generally used as places where people with common experiences, be it the victims of sexual assault, people of color, homosexuals, etc. can discuss issues that are meaningful to them without having to put up with people discounting their experiences, i.e. "well what were you wearing?" or "you're just imagining that white person locking their car door when you walk by", etc. The "safe" part of the whole thing is more for the victims of assault and rape other similar crimes who literally often have PTSD and get a little jumpy or upset when certain people or the things they say/way they say them prevent them from living an otherwise normal life. So called "safe spaces" are places for these people to go once in a while to escape that.

The difference is, words matter as it pertains to contributing to racist behavior, and the fact is "racist" and "racism" aren't your daddy's racism. When you're talking about this kind of racism, you're talking about systemic racism and racism as an ideology, not "omg I hate black people" racism. In other words, I'd say like 75% of the time I call someone racist or point out what they're saying/doing is racist, I'm not saying that said person actually hates, or dislikes, black people because they're black. I'm pointing out that they may have a little bit of an implicit bias that they should probably examine and see if there's a way to change that behavior, because it does contribute to systemic racism on the macro level. Think the cop in the helicopter saying "that looks like a bad dude". I would bet that cop probably isn't a 1950's, hate black people racist. But does his comment point to an implicit bias in police officers especially that view black people as more dangerous, which is ultimately leading to some really zesty and unjustified police shootings? Yeah, probably.

That's the rhetoric and language I worry about. I don't feel as bad about calling racists racist, or deplorable, or etc. And, just from a pure numbers aspect, Clinton's comment was probably right. Trump is probably going to get somewhere around 70 million voters in November. Half of them being so-called 'deplorables" would be around 35 million, so...what, 11-12% of the country? Yeah, I feel comfortable saying that, at minimum, 11-12% of the country is racist.

That's a whole lot of words to simply say you are trying to redefine the term "racism". 

[Munson]

Not me. I'm smart but not smart enough to claim credit for an entire field of social science.

[Butchers Bill]

Not me. I'm smart but not smart enough to claim credit for an entire field of social science.

Fair enough.  Do you think it's accurate or too broad a definition?

[Munson]

I think it's relatively accurate. I guess they could have invented a new word for it, and I suppose "implicit bias" is often used as a stand in for it, but I think it's easier to just use "racism" because people at least have heard the word and have a basic understanding of what racism is or could mean. "Implicit bias" can cause even the intellectually engaged person's eyes to start to glaze over lol.

And I think "systemic racism" captures the racial aspect of it in ways that "implicit bias" does not. Anyone can be biased against anyone, but 'racism' carries a connotation with it that points to these problems disproportionately effecting people of color on a systemic level in ways that it doesn't effect white people.

Long story short, I think the battle against individual racism has been "won", more or less. Outspoken, overt racists are usually immediately discredited in public discourse and shunned by society on a macro level (though Trump is really shaking my faith in that). What we've seen in the wake of that "victory" is that this type of racism wasn't the only problem, and may not even have been the biggest problem as it pertains to making the American Dream more obtainable for poor communities and for people of color. Rather it seems the implicit bias born out of societal norms is what still leads to things like resumes with black names not getting call backs, a tendency to view black people as 'dangerous', a tendency to sort of ignore the problems poverty plays in child development that we instead blame on bad parenting or bad teachers, etc. To change those kinds of thoughts, you have to change societal norms a little bit. Those thoughts don't develop in a vacuum, they're shaped by what we see and hear around us.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Trump is racist.  Or at the very least, promoting an agenda which is racist and xenophobic.   Take his comments about Hispanics or the fact that his answer to fixing race relations in this country as more policing and law and order as examples (not subtle coding for poor black people are the problems with the current police/urban tensions). 

Now, I don't think everyone who supports Trump is racist...it's such a partisan society that there are people who have been pulling the R lever for so long that they won't break from it even if they dislike Trump (that's weak to me but not inherently racist).  That being said, you're doing the same thing you're accusing others of by moving goal posts here.  Trump may not verbatim be a white supremacist ala Duke and co, but that does not mean he's not racist and xenophobic.

[Sgt PSN]

A vote for Trump is a vote for racism.  You might not be racist, but you're still supporting it, which is just as bad. In fact, it might even be worse because you're turning a blind eye to a very real problem simply because it doesn't apply to you.

[Butchers Bill]

A vote for Trump is a vote for racism.  You might not be racist, but you're still supporting it, which is just as bad. In fact, it might even be worse because you're turning a blind eye to a very real problem simply because it doesn't apply to you.

This is where I just fundamentally disagree.  Trump was never called a racist until he started running for President.  In fact, with a simple Google search you can find video of Jesse Jackson calling him a "Champion of Minority Empowerment" in 1999. 

Has he said some stupid things?  Yup. 

Has he said inflammatory things?  Without a doubt.

However, a vote for Trump being a vote for racism crosses a chasm that most reasonable people would disagree with.

[ice grillin you]

trump practiced housing discrimination in the 70's...dropped his central park 5 ad and op ed in the 80's employed a virulently racist butler in the 90's and started the birther movement in 2011

math isnt my expertise but i believe all those things happened before june 2016 when trump announced his candidacy

[Eagles_Legendz]

The idea that there was no Trump racism discussion until the last 12 months is just demonstrably false.  Since the birther talk originated with Trump as its champion that has actually been a big identifier of him as an individual. 

You're conflating arguments.  If you want to defend people voting for Trump - fine.  But just because every person who voted for Trump isn't a racist doesn't mean Trump isn't.   This isn't generic left wing bashing the conservative presidential candidate.  Trump has an unquestioned track record of racist and xenophobic statements the last 5 years.  It's not hyperbole.  It's literal racism and xenophobia. 

If this was Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan or W I'd agree.  I rarely agree with those people but there's no real evidence of racism.  That's not true with Trump.

[Butchers Bill]

Seriously?  Trump started the birther movement in 2011?  I recall that being an issue in 2008.

[Eagles_Legendz]

If you aren't acknowledging that Trump was at the forefront of birtherism since 2010 you are being more willfully ignorant than the people you're chastising.  False equivalencies aren't okay. 

HRC is not great.  She is tremendously flawed as a candidate.  I don't particularly trust her and she wouldn't be my first second or 99th choice as president.  That being said, it's not ok to basically act like she and Trump are equally bad. 

I can pull about 20 quotes from Trump which are just facially xenophobic or racist. 

[ice grillin you]

Seriously?  Trump started the birther movement in 2011?  I recall that being an issue in 2008.

he started the movement which the foundation of his candidacy was based on...it wasnt even an "issue" in 2008 much less a movement

but shtein if it makes you feel better to support a racist/white suprmeeist without the birther movement take that off the table and hes still a blatant racist...like the hundreds of times hes retweeted white supremeists on twitter...or refused to disavow david duke plus lied about knowing who he was...and that is on top of the things i mentioned above

sorry dook you cant get away from this one...your boy is sewer rat of a human being and your people in huge numbers support him..this aint no fringe candidate

[Sgt PSN]

A vote for Trump is a vote for racism.  You might not be racist, but you're still supporting it, which is just as bad. In fact, it might even be worse because you're turning a blind eye to a very real problem simply because it doesn't apply to you.

This is where I just fundamentally disagree.  Trump was never called a racist until he started running for President.  In fact, with a simple Google search you can find video of Jesse Jackson calling him a "Champion of Minority Empowerment" in 1999. 

Has he said some stupid things?  Yup. 

Has he said inflammatory things?  Without a doubt.

However, a vote for Trump being a vote for racism crosses a chasm that most reasonable people would disagree with.

Perhaps you could show me where I stated that Trump is a racist.  I'll save you some time - I didn't.  However, there's no denying that his campaign has been surrounded and fueled by hate, racism, bigotry, islamaphobia, homophobia, sexism and probably another dozen isms and phobias.  His campaign, his speeches, his demeanor - whether they are intentional or not - have brought out the ugliest side of humanity that should have been wiped out with the Civil Rights Movement, and at no point has he ever attempted to stop it.  If he's not racist, then shouldn't he be out there delivering messages of peace and tolerance?  Shouldn't he be denouncing David Duke and the KKK?  Why isn't he doing anything to curtail the pure hatred that is coming from so much of his base? 

Whether he actually believes any of it or not doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me.  He is, at an absolute minimum, compliant with racism.  So yeah, it's very reasonable to conclude that a vote for Trump is a vote for racism.  Because it damn sure isn't a vote against it.