Phillies Spring Training Talk

[ice grillin you]

no hes in his 30's and is a career minor leaguer

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Awsum.  So glad guys like that get at-bats in spring training.

[BigEd76]

Ryan Howard hit 2 HRs to right today that went at least 900 ft combined   

[PhillyPhreak54]

And Chris Coste drove in the winning run.

Coste > Bell

[PhillyPhanInDC]

News that David Bell tweaked his back during Wednesday's workouts raised a familiar red flag, the same one that's waved throughout his stay in Philadelphia.

His back is back to being bothersome.

While the oft-injured third baseman was already scheduled to miss the Phillies' first two exhibition games with a sore left elbow, this adds another chapter to the already long tale of Bell's Philadelphia back story.

He'll be examined Thursday by Dr. Thomas Tolli, an orthopedic surgeon based in St. Petersburg, Fla. Tolli has also been working with pitcher Cole Hamels, who is recovering from what was diagnosed as a stress reaction.

David Bell hurt her back again today. Surprised? I'm not.

Hello, Abraham Nunez.

What in the holy farg is a stress reaction?

[PhillyPhreak54]

That's vadgespeak for saying "David Bell is made out of paper mache".

[MURP]

I thought that Howard HR was going to hit the highway. 

[SunMo]

they said it did...

that was sick, crushed and pulled off of a lefty

[LBIggle]

they said it did...

that was sick, crushed and pulled off of a lefty

that's unpossible.  howard can't hit off of lefties.

[MDS]

First TV "game" of the year is tommorrow. Maybe we can finally beat the Astros in a game that doesn't count and will be full of career minor leaguers by the 4th inning.

[Rome]

I was at the game yesterday and can report that the homer that Howard hit did, in fact, travel about 500 feet.

I've only seen a couple of Phils players hit balls like that out of the park.  Greg Luzinski hit them like that, Thome did and now Howard.

Honestly, Howard hit it and a brief hush fell over the stadium.  A second late, the place erupted.  Just incredible.

[Geowhizzer]

I anticipate a prolonged slump this season from Howard.  Probably around June.  It's to be expected, as he's a 2nd year player with a big swing, and pitchers will be making their adjustments.  He'll have to start making them too, and it could be a little while before he figures it out.

However, I think that he's going to be good.  Very good.  Possibly the Phils' best first baseman ever.

This kid has it.

[Rome]

I also went to see the Yankees/Reds at Legends Field (could the Yankees be any more pompous with a name like that??)      today and saw something pretty cool.

Randy Johnson started the game and was done pretty quickly.  Two innings I think.  Anyway, around the fifth inning or so, I was standing on top of the stadium area looking back towards the practice fields and noticed him playing with his children.  He had four kids with him and he was tossing batting pratice to his son and his three daughters were out shagging flys from the kid.  He then put his glove on and began playing catch with the kid who looked to be about ten years old.  The funny thing was, the kid was a righty but threw almost exactly like Johnson.

After all the arrogance and corporate bullshtein I had to endure at that miserable, bloated cash register of a stadium, it was nice to see that even for a moment, a guy could still be out there having fun with his kids on a nice sunny day.

[Geowhizzer]

Daulton?  No way.

LIFETIME .245 average.
ZERO seasons over 30 HR.
TWO seasons over 100 RBI.  Heck, TWO seasons over 65 RBI.
FOUR seasons over 100 games.


stats are very low on the list here...this isnt the HOF and youre making a HOF argument...its all about whos the most phillie...and dutch is right up there....

Sorry to come back to this so much later, but I don't totally buy this argument.  Here is the Wall of Fame list:

• Robin Roberts (1978)- HOF
• Richie Ashburn (1979)- HOF
• Chuck Klein (1980)-HOF
• Grover Alexander (1981)- HOF
• Del Ennis (1982)- 288 Lifetime HRs; 257 for Phils (I believe all-time leader before Schmidt)
• Jim Bunning (1984)- HOF
• Ed Delahanty (1985)- HOF
• Cy Williams (1986)- 254 HR, 220 with Phils (1918-1930)
• Granny Hamner (1987)- 17 seasons with Phils; Shortstop on 1950 team; 3-time All-Star
• Paul Owens (1988)- Architect of 1980 World Champs
• Steve Carlton (1989)- HOF
• Mike Schmidt (1990)- HOF
• Larry Bowa (1991)- 12 seasons with Phils; 5-time All-Star; 2 Gold Gloves and one of top-5 fielding SS ever (in my opinion).
• Chris Short (1992)- 132 wins with Phils (135 total); Won 20+ once, 15+ four times; 2-time All-Star
• Curt Simmons (1993)- 193 wins (122 with Phils); 3-time All-Star; #2 pitcher for 1950 pennant-winner
• Dick Allen (1994)- 351 HRs (177 with Phils); 1964 ROY; 7-time All-Star (3 with Phils); border-line (or just below) HOF
• Willie Jones (1995)- 190 HR (180 with Phils); 2-time All-Star; Closest to Daulton stat-wise- not as high peak but more consistent; Great nickname (Puddin' Head)
• Sam Thompson (1996)- HOF, part of greatest OF in Phils (and maybe baseball) history (Thompson-Delahanty-Hamilton); .331 lifetime average
• Johnny Callison (1997)- 226 HR (185 with Phils); 3-time All-Star (1 MVP); #2 MVP voting 1964
• Greg Luzinski (1998)- 307 HR (223 with Phils); 4-time All-Star; 3 seasons 30+ HR for Phils (4 total); #2 in MVP Voting twice; 100+ RBI 3X with Phils (4 total, 97 in another season).
• Tug McGraw (1999)- 2nd closest to your Daulton argument.  He does have that distinction of getting the World Series clinching strikeout.  96 saves with Phls.  All-Star in 1975 (with Phils) and 1972 (Mets).
• Gavvy Cravath (2000)- Early HR king (led six times 1913-1919), including 1915 pennant winner with 24.  Could be a borderline HOF from dead-ball era.
• Garry Maddox (2001)- Secretary of Defense (8 Gold Gloves)
• Tony Taylor (2002)- Closest to Daulton argument.  Played 19 seasons- 15 with Phils.  Average infielder (1-time All-Star) that played all four infield slots.  Most popular player on the 1960s.  Had over 2,000 hits in career.
• Sherry Magee (2003)- Early star of Phils (1904-1914).  Led NL in RBI four times, average once, slugging twice.  Borderline (just below) HOF from deadball era.  Lifetime .291 average.  1176 career RBI (886 with Phils).
• Billy Hamilton (2004)- HOF, had MLB record for SB before Lou Brock (912, still 3rd all-time).  Hit .404 for Phils in 1894.
• Bob Boone (2005)- Long-time Phils catcher (1972-1981); All-Star four times (3 with Phils).  Catcher of World Series winner in 1980 (hit .412); 7 Gold Gloves (2 with Phils)
• Daulton:  14 seasons (13.5 with Philly); 3-time All-Star; 100+ RBI twice; Played 100+ games a total of four times.


Here are the basic offensive totals of the position players on this list (these are career totals, not just with Phils):

Darren Daulton:  1161 Games, 891 Hits, 197 2B, 137 HRs, 588 RBI, .245
Garry Maddox:  1749 Games, 1802 Hits, 337 2B, 117 HR, 754 RBI, .285
Richie Ashburn:  2189 Games, 2574 Hits, 317 2B, 29 HR, 586 RBI, .308, 1322 Runs, 234 SB
Chuck Klein:  1753 Games, 2076 Hits, 398 2B, 300 HR, 1201 RBI, .320
Del Ennis:  1903 Games, 2067 Hits, 358 2B, 288 HR, 1284 RBI, .284
Ed Delahanty:  1835 Games, 2596 Hits, 522 2B, 101 HR, 1464 RBI, .346
Cy Williams:  2002 Games, 1981 Hits, 306 2B, 251 HR, 1005 RBI, .292
Granny Hamner:  1531 Games, 1529 Hits, 272 2B, 104 HR, 708 RBI, .262
Mike Schmidt: 2404 Games, 2234 Hits, 408 2B, 548 HR, 1595 RBI, .267
Larry Bowa:  2247 Games, 2191 Hits, 262 2B, 15 HR, 525 RBI, .260
Dick Allen: 1749 Games, 1848 Hits, 320 2B, 351 HR, 1119 RBI, .292
Willie Jones: 1691 Games, 1502 Hits, 252 2B, 190 HR, 812 RBI, .258
Sam Thompson: 1407 Games, 1979 Hits, 340 2B, 127 HR, 1299 RBI, .331
Johnny Callison: 1886 Games, 1757 Hits, 321 2B, 226 HR, 840 RBI, .264
Greg Luzinski: 1821 Games, 1795 Hits, 344 2B, 307 HR, 1128 RBI, .276
Tony Taylor: 2195 Games, 2007 Hits, 298 2B, 75 HR, 598 RBI, .261
Gavvy Cravath: 1220 Games, 1134 Hits, 232 2B, 119 HR, 719 RBI, .287
Sherry Magee: 2087 Games, 2169 Hits, 425 2B, 83 HR, 1176 RBI, .291
Billy Hamilton: 1591 Games, 2158 Hits, 242 2B, 40 HR, 736 RBI, .344, 912 SB
Bob Boone: 2264 Games, 1838 Hits, 303 2B, 105 HR, 826 RBI, .254

Note:  Even though I put career totals, all the names above achieved around 75% or more of their career totals with the Phils, except Billy Hamilton, Dick Allen and Bob Boone (probably a bit more than half)


Daulton is among the the lowest of this list in the following offensive categories:
• Batting Average (.245- Boone is next at .254)
• Doubles (197- only one below 200; Cravath is next at 232)
• RBI (588, 3rd lowest ahead of Ashburn (586) and Bowa (525)- Ashburn hit leadoff, Bowa either at 1, 7 or 8 in the lineup).  Both Ashburn and Bowa have more than 2,000 hits, while Daulton did not even reach 1,000.
• Hits (891- the only one under 1,000; Gravath next at 1,134, and he didn't start until age 31)
• Games (1161- next lowest Cravath at 1220)
• Even middle infielders like Granny Hamner had more RBI than Daulton, who was in the middle of the order in his prime.

To me, making the "he was a true Phillie" argument belies the fact that:
•  Daulton was truly a regular player for only four full seasons (1989-1990, 1992-1993).  Granted, in 1991 and 1994-1996, injuries were the reason, but those are the ONLY four seasons in which he played in over 100 games for the Phils (in 1997, he played 84 for the Phils and 52 for the Marlins, and did not catch that season).
•  He had 400+ ABs in just three seasons (1990, 1992, 1993).
•  He had productive offensive numbers in 1992 (27/109/.270) and 1993 (24/105/.257).  In the half-season in 1994, he was doing well (15/56/.300) before injuries and the strike.  Other than the two 100+ RBI years, his best RBI seasons were 1990 (57), 1994 (56) and 1995 (55).  He had 63 in 1997 (44 for the Phils).
•  He had a half-season at .300 (1994), one at .270 (1992), and two more above .260 (1990, 1997). 
•  He had  two half-seasons below .200 (1987, .184 and 1991, .196) and two partial seasons and a full season below .210 (1985, 34 games, .204; 1988, 54 games, .208; 1989, 85 games, .201

Every position player on the list had one (or more) of the following characteristics:
• Statistical excellence (e.g. Schmidt's HR total, Hamilton's average)
• Stat accumulation (e.g. Ashburn's 2,500+ hits)

Now, from what I am arguing some will say that I do not like Daulton.  Actually, I was quite a fan of Daulton's when he played.  I loved his hard-nosed style and the fire that he brought to the Phillie teams of that era.  He was a clubhouse leader for the 1993 pennant-winners.  I just do not think that his career belongs to the Wall of Fame, especially before some of the other names on that list are honored.

For the record, I did vote for Fred Luderus, Pinky Whitney and Dallas Green.

OK, I'm done nerding up the thread.  Back to spring training!

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Allow me to retort:

Farg Daulton.