Smoking ban in Philadelphia approved

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

If this is Demolition Man, IGY is Cocteau, and rjs is Edgar Friendly.

[Phanatic]

Considering that cigerettes are as addicting as heroin how could you possibly deny health care to folks who smoke or even don't take the second chance? The true affliction there is the addiction. The lung cancer and emphazima all just come with it...

[Cerevant]

I'd concede a second chance, but most smokers today started smoking knowing the health risks.  I would not be opposed to inpatient detox (paid), but someone who persists in spite of their own health?

[Sgt PSN]

Your point being?  Or are you just quoting me because I'm awesome?  Just because I'm ok with sacrificing some of my own civil liberties doesn't mean that it's the best thing for the greater good.  I really don't care if the government has all that stuff on me if I voluntarilly give them.  

i found it funny that youre willing to give up some profound personal privacys yet then listed all the ways banning cigarettes in bars is going to lead to america being a virtual police state

I would give them up individually if it's my decision to.  They're my rights and if I choose to "waive" them then that's my decision.  But it's not my decision to take away your right nor is it the government's right to take them away either.  

really tho it furthers my point that this primarily is not about rights of business' or individuals but its about smokers vs non smokers

You're still missing the point.  This isn't about smokers vs non-smokers.  It could be about gum chewers and non-gum chewers or dippers and non-dippers or sunflower seed chewers and non.  

If the gov't  decided that they no longer wanted people chewing gum in bars and resturants because people stick their chewed up wads under tables and chairs and unsuspecting customers get it stuck on their hands, clothes, hair, etc.  

I don't chew gum.  And as a non-gum chewer I think it's a detriment to my health to come in contact with someone else's chewed up gum and whatever health risks may be associated with it.  Maybe the person chewing it had bronchitis or something.  So let's tell people they can't chew gum in public, yet privately owned places.  

[Cerevant]

But that's the difference between smoking and any other scenario: you can't not "share" the smoke with your friends.  Give the gum chewers somewhere to throw away their gum - there are reasonable things you can do to control it.  The analog to smoking would be to say that you have the right to spit out your gum, walk across the room and stuff it up my nose.

[ice grillin you]

i disagree...this issue is primarily split along smoker vs non smoker lines....are there some people like sun who dont smoke but are against the law yupe...just like there are some smokers who realize that their smoke is hurtful to others and are for the law...but really its not even close to a big enough issue on either side to turn it into some sort of personal rights thing

its people who dont wanna go outside to smoke vs people who dont wanna inhale and get stenched up by smoke...its a individual convienance/health issue not an individual (and/or a business) rights issue

this is why everytime its ever come up its passes with little resistence and the business'  lose zero customers and often gain...so really it helps all those involved

[Sgt PSN]

In a free society, you have the right to do as you please until it infringes on someone else's right to do the same.  Every case I've listed as public or work it is reasonable to have some restrictions to protect the rights of the others who have every right to be in that place.

I think the real problem is that the definition of public place has seriously become skewed over the years.  

City Park = Public Place

Resturant/bar/club that is open to the general public = Private Place

Resturant/bar/club that is not open to the general public = Private Place

You say that in a free society I have the right to do as I wish as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's right to do the same.  I disagree.  Because by that logic, if you and I are playing a game of Madden in my home and I start smoking, I am infringing upon your right to breathe fresh air.

In a free society, I have the right to do as I wish in public as long as it doesn't infringe upon other people's right to do the same.  

So if I'm in a public park smoking a cigarette, then it's reasonable to expect that anyone in my immediate vicinity is going to get some of my 2nd hand smoke.  I am now polluting the air that person is trying to breathe.  

If a business owner wishes to allow smoking inside an establishment that he/she has paid for and you as a non-smoker walk into that establishment then you are willingly putting yourself at risk.  

So basically, if the government wants to tell me that I can't smoke on public property.....property that is owned and maintained by the city/state/fed government, then that's fine with me.  It's their property and they can do what they want with it.  Hell, if it was illegal to smoke on the streets, imagine how much cleaner they'd be without all the cigarette butts all over the place.  I would seriously be ok with that.  

But when the government starts dictating what can and can't happen inside of a privately owned business then it's only a matter of time before they start dictating what happens inside of privately owned homes.  

[Sgt PSN]

But that's the difference between smoking and any other scenario: you can't not "share" the smoke with your friends.  Give the gum chewers somewhere to throw away their gum - there are reasonable things you can do to control it.  The analog to smoking would be to say that you have the right to spit out your gum, walk across the room and stuff it up my nose.

Gum chewers used to have a reasonable place to put their gum.  It was called an ashtray. 

[Cerevant]

If a business owner wishes to allow smoking inside an establishment that he/she has paid for and you as a non-smoker walk into that establishment then you are willingly putting yourself at risk.  

This is the whole reason why I said this was an OH&S issue.  The ban is not for smoking in private establishments - the MD law allows this.  The ban is for smoking in establishments where people are working.  It falls under the other OH&S measures I described already, along with the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, workplace hazardous materials safety management, etc.

[ice grillin you]

In a free society, you have the right to do as you please until it infringes on someone else's right to do the same.  Every case I've listed as public or work it is reasonable to have some restrictions to protect the rights of the others who have every right to be in that place.

City Park = Public Place

Resturant/bar/club that is open to the general public = Private Place

Resturant/bar/club that is not open to the general public = Private Place

im assuming youre saying this is how it should be....because it couldnt be further from the truth...otherwise the local bennigans could refuse to allow blacks or women if they chose...a restaurant that is open to the public has to follow governmental laws on how its run...these laws cover everything from the health of the people in the place to having disabled parking spots outside to the hrs they can serve alcohol to whats on the televisions to whose allowed in...

[Wingspan]

In a free society, you have the right to do as you please until it infringes on someone else's right to do the same.  Every case I've listed as public or work it is reasonable to have some restrictions to protect the rights of the others who have every right to be in that place.

City Park = Public Place

Resturant/bar/club that is open to the general public = Private Place

Resturant/bar/club that is not open to the general public = Private Place

im assuming youre saying this is how it should be....because it couldnt be further from the truth...otherwise the local bennigans could refuse to allow blacks or women if they chose...a restaurant that is open to the public has to follow governmental laws on how its run...these laws cover everything from the health of the people in the place to having disabled parking spots outside to whats on the televisions to whose allowed in

no...sarge is right.

like 4 pages ago...or whatever...when you asked a dozen different ways. a restaurant or a bar, unless it is the Valley Forge Park Snack Bar, is a private place of business. Open to the general public.

It is not public property. How do you not get this?

And there are racial and sexual anti descrimination laws that would protect a black woman from being refused service. and building codes to maintain a number of handicap spaces.

[ice grillin you]

youre talking about property...im talking about the business itself...you can smoke in the local kiwanis club all you want...in private clubs you can drink 24 hrs a day...this is not the case in public restaurants or workplaces

[Diomedes]

might as well post this here..

I've been saying this forever, and now some scientists are on my side:  smokers health care burden on society less than that of non smokers.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-te.story05feb05,0,4148359.story

[rjs246]

I'm disappointed that obese people are also less of a burden. But at least they die younger.

[SunMo]