Orioles closer (and former Phillie prospect) Alfredo Simón killed a dude (http://www.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/01/03/orioles.pitcher.shooting/index.html).
good for him
Atlanta gave Uggla 5/$62M
That's as bad as murder.
Bert Blyleven and Roberto Alomar are HOF
Bagwell only got 42% (his first year of eligibility)
Adrian Beltre to the Rangers....6/$96M
Adam LaRoche to the Nats...3/$25M
Derrek Lee to the Orioles...1/$8M
I think it bears adding that the Hall of Fame voting is a total crock of shtein.
Discuss. Or don't.
It is...but I'm happy they're keeping the roiders out.
HOF should pretty much be like the Heisman where only current members get a vote. Sportswriters can hold a grudge over an athlete because said athlete was a fleshpop to him 1 time 20 years ago (take Bayless and TO for example. Different sport, same principle). Not to mention that it seems to make sportswriters feel like they're a lot more important than they really are. Farg that.
So there are people who actually believe that the HoF is roid free?
Should we also cancel out all the guys who didn't have to play against black folk?
its such a sham and its something people just dont talk about
like almost anything HOF is an old boys network, once you get in you stay in and you live in your glass house where you can not be "a ricky guy" and justify not voting for ricky henderson.
its ridiculous but hopefully those people will be dead within 10 years
I don't think anyone beleives that the players currently in the HOF are all clean. There's roiders in there and guys who used other performance enhancers. Some we know about, others we have no clue. Guys like Bonds and McGwire will eventually get in imo. Especially McGwire. He was always well liked and finally came clean. Bonds will eventually get in too. He was too good not to, even without the juice.
Someone like Palmiero on the other hand probably shouldn't get in regardless of steroids. He piled up a lot of numbers during the steroid era, but so did everyone else that played in that era. He has 500 hr. Ok, great. I beleive he's also the only member of the 500 hr club who never led the league in hr in any given year. In fact, he only led the league 3x in any offensive category. Hits in 1990, Doubles in 1992 and Runs in 1993. He was only selected to 4 AS games, one of which was as a DH and only once did he crack the top 5 in MVP voting (5th in 1999). So even if he wasn't juicing (which he was), he didn't put together enough seasons where he was definitively among the top players in the game to be HOF material imo.
Also, I don't know exactly when Palmeiro started juicing, but I'd put my money on 1993. Were it not for the strike shorted season of 1994, he would have had 11 straight seasons of 35+ hr when his previous career high was just 26. Coincidentally, he hit 38 hr in 2003 and then in 2004 when the league started testing, he only hit 23. Shocking!
bonds is a first ballot HOF even without his steroids years
but he was perhaps the biggest icehole of all time and a roid head....i.e. he isnt getting in
yet ty cobb is happily in the hall of fame even though he was a drunk racist, so....yup
Quote from: MDS on January 06, 2011, 04:34:30 PM
bonds is a first ballot HOF even without his steroids years
but he was perhaps the biggest icehole of all time and a roid head....i.e. he isnt getting in
yet ty cobb is happily in the hall of fame even though he was a drunk racist, so....yup
Bonds will get it, but it'll probably be in his last year of eligibility. The writers will never vote him in so it will have to be whatever that committe it is that gets the final say. He'll be on the ballot for a few more years and by that time, a lot of the negativity around him will have worn off.
hey lets knock out all the guys from the 70's that popped greenies.
Or the boozers, brawlers or guys who played before 1947. HOF is a crock indeed. The worst part is having fat sanctimonious gasbags like Conlin holding the keys.
Don't kid yourselves. Bonds and McGwire are not getting in, and it's a travashamamockery.
Quote from: FastFreddie on January 06, 2011, 04:00:32 PM
So there are people who actually believe that the HoF is roid free?
Should we also cancel out all the guys who didn't have to play against black folk?
If you're referring to me no I don't believe the HOF is roid free. If people used them during the offseason to recover or bulk up a little so be it, steroids aren't harmful unless they're abused. People like Mcgwire/Palmeiro/Sosa/Giambi/Bonds completely abused them and would not have come close to putting up the stats they did without them.
Nobody knows that. I seriously dislike cheaters when it comes to professional sports. I'm like a frigging child in that regard. I want sports to represent pure competition and the best/smartest/luckiest winning on any given day. But this whole steroid HOF thing is retarded. I would rather have 1000 people who did steroids elected to the HOF than stiff one deserving player out of being eleceted because of some misguided crusade to make a point.
no one argue thats
but because they took steroids the holier than thou writers shouldnt punish the supposed guilty parties (like bagwell) just because they did. its not their job to be the morality police. its their job to judge the player and judge the numbers and say you are worthy of being in the hall.
steroids or no steroids all those guys should get in. they didnt break any rule. you want someone to blame, do so to selig and don fehr for allowing it to happen.
Quote from: SD on January 06, 2011, 06:25:42 PM
People like Mcgwire/Palmeiro/Sosa/Giambi/Bonds completely abused them and would not have come close to putting up the stats they did without them.
False. Typing this was the biggest mistake you've made in your life.
OK, maybe not. But it's still really stupid.
Sorry but that's my opinion and I don't expect or care if you or anyone else agrees with it. Once upon a time steroids were used to heal muscles and to add strength. Then they were abused.
Speaking of roiders, anyone see this story in Philly.com today about our old pal Nails/Dude/I consider myself an ex-Met:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20110104_Dykstra_still_a_deadbeat_.html
Any "escort" that does all of the following deserves this fate:
-goes out with Lenny Dykstra
-accepts a check from anybody
-goes public
-expects said public to believe no sex was involved for $1000
But seriously, Bonds alone is probably one of the most talented players to ever play the game. He was an incredible defensive player and had a ton of speed before the roids allowed him to hit a lot of homers, and he was always a great contact hitter. Saying that he would not have been good without roids is an opinion but one that is hard to find any basis for at all.
Bonds won an MVP or 2 before roids and had 30ish hr/season power. He never would have sniffed 755 without the juice, but he almost certainly would have eclipsed 500.
Sosa will probably never get in and I don't think Giambi will either. Palmeiro has an outside shot although I don't think he deserves to go because even though he has numbers, he's pretty much the least memorable player to hit 500 hr in my lifetime and probably ever. Seriously.....does anyone ever think to themselves "Man, I loved watching Raffy play." No.
Who cares if they used PED's?
It's like Maximus in Gladiator when Crowe screams to the crowd: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
farg yeah I was entertained and I couldn't care less what those mensas injected themselves with to entertain me.
I definitely care about it. I want to watch athletes on the field, no science projects.
However, I don't think you ban them from the HOF or anything like that. Guys like McGwire and Bonds should get in because they had plenty of talent before they juiced and were already HOF'ers to begin with. Then you've got guys like Giambi and Palmeiro who put up big numbers but both of them put those numbers up in the least memorable way possible. I'm not down on either of those guys because they did roids. I'm down on them because they weren't that exciting to watch and they didn't do anything memorable during their careers.
Quote from: Rome on January 06, 2011, 07:32:16 PM
Who cares if they used PED's?
It's like Maximus in Gladiator when Crowe screams to the crowd: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
farg yeah I was entertained and I couldn't care less what those mensas injected themselves with to entertain me.
When you're talking about records and who should get into the HOF everyone who likes baseball should care. Abusing roids is cheating and gives the people who take them a clear edge.
Quote from: FastFreddie on January 06, 2011, 07:12:09 PM
But seriously, Bonds alone is probably one of the most talented players to ever play the game. He was an incredible defensive player and had a ton of speed before the roids allowed him to hit a lot of homers, and he was always a great contact hitter. Saying that he would not have been good without roids is an opinion but one that is hard to find any basis for at all.
Out of the people I listed I think Bonds is the only one who would have gotten in if he didn't take roids. Palmeiro was a good player but he didn't have HOF numbers, Sosa was streaky but nothing special etc.
Edit: And maybe McGwire but I'd say he's borderline
I swear to God there isn't a player who has ever lived who HASN'T cheated to one degree or another.
Whether it's stealing signs or juicing up or greasing the ball or loading a bat or not touching the bag on a double play throw from second to first, they've all farging cheated.
Pointing at PED's as a litmus test of Hall eligibility is simply absurd. More than that, it's farging hypocrisy of the worst kind.
Willie Mays stole signs all the god damn time at the Polo Grounds. What a fraud. KICK HIM OUT.
are you kidding sarge?
minus the roids palmeiro would be and should be a mortal lock...the farging guy has 500 homers AND 3000 hits...obviously the question is would he have gotten their roids free...but from what you are saying it sounds like you wouldnt put him in anyway...if 500 and 3000 doesnt get you in then farging close the building down
Quote from: Rome on January 06, 2011, 08:03:20 PM
I swear to God there isn't a player who has ever lived who HASN'T cheated to one degree or another.
Whether it's stealing signs or juicing up or greasing the ball or loading a bat or not touching the bag on a double play throw from second to first, they've all farging cheated.
Pointing at PED's as a litmus test of Hall eligibility is simply absurd. More than that, it's farging hypocrisy of the worst kind.
There are different levels of cheating and breaking the law. If a store clerk gave me too much change back and I didn't say anything, that's cheating the store. If I pulled a Madoff and ripped people off, in your analysis there's no difference between that and not fessing up about the extra money the store gave you. There are different levels to everything. Missing a bag or stealing an occassional sign is one thing, taking ridiculous amounts of roids and putting up record breaking numbers is another.
Let's also not forget that the McGwire/Sosa home run race saved baseball after the strike.
So they should be put into the HOF because they saved baseball after the strike? I don't see the relevance.
we cant pick and choose what aspects of history we want to remember
what happened....happened. joe jackson bet on baseball. kind of. pete rose actually did. mcgwire, sosa, bonds, etc. quasi-cheated. they were all great players regardless. they should be in, but their career achievements (bad and good) should be on their plaque.
its a baseball history museum, not a select representation of the feel goodery that baseball can be
I agree, the HOF should have no standards. Screw everyone, let them all in. Maybe McGwire makes it in but it's obvious the HOF committee agrees with my stance. So there's that.
i could see not caring about cheaters in football or basketball but baseballs foundation is built on statistics and once those become meaningless the sport might as well not exist....its also the only HOF worth a damn
i would put a committee together to determine when the steriod era was...put players who used on the committe coaches gm's strength coaches ect....anyone and everyone who could come up with a time period of when steriods became out of control in the game
once that time frame is determined any and all players who played 75% of their career during it dont get in
in other words just ban the steroid era from existence
Matt Garza is going to the Cubs in an 8-player trade
Tampa is a farging disgrace. Sell the team and gtfo.
Garza, Fernando Perez (the speedy runner in the 9th inning of the Phils' WS clincher) and a minor league pitcher for 3 of the Cubs' top 10 prospects (not a great system), a 3-yr backup OF and a guy that's been in their minor league system for 10 years
Quote from: SD on January 07, 2011, 09:32:00 AM
I agree, the HOF should have no standards. Screw everyone, let them all in. Maybe McGwire makes it in but it's obvious the HOF committee agrees with my stance. So there's that.
McGwire would have been a HOF player if he stayed healthy anyway. Dude hit 49 HR's in 1987 without the juice. Bonds won 3 MVP's before morphing into a silverback gorilla. Roids made their numbers absurd but both were HOF's without it.
It doesn't matter to me anyway. I loved 1997 and still remember watching McGwire hitting number 70 at the Carousel in Sea Isle. The fact that he was jacked when he did it doesn't make the memory any less thrilling, SD.
Quote from: Rome on January 07, 2011, 12:00:32 PM
Tampa is a farging disgrace.
The city, or the team? Either way, yes.
Tampa is a shteinhole. The beach areas are amazing though.
Quote from: Rome on January 07, 2011, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: SD on January 07, 2011, 09:32:00 AM
I agree, the HOF should have no standards. Screw everyone, let them all in. Maybe McGwire makes it in but it's obvious the HOF committee agrees with my stance. So there's that.
McGwire would have been a HOF player if he stayed healthy anyway. Dude hit 49 HR's in 1987 without the juice. Bonds won 3 MVP's before morphing into a silverback gorilla. Roids made their numbers absurd but both were HOF's without it.
It doesn't matter to me anyway. I loved 1997 and still remember watching McGwire hitting number 70 at the Carousel in Sea Isle. The fact that he was jacked when he did it doesn't make the memory any less thrilling, SD.
actually it was 1998 and I agree it was one of the most memorable years in baseball history even though the Phillies were absolutely atrocious. Not only was there the homerun race, David Wells threw a perfect game, and the Yanks and Padres played in the WS (I was in SD at the time). Regardless, just because it was a memorable year doesn't mean squat when arguing whether Mcgwire should be in the HOF. And how do you know he wasn't on roids when he hit 49 HRs? Canseco was already on the team at that point.
Quote from: Rome on January 07, 2011, 12:00:32 PM
Tampa is a farging disgrace. Sell the team and gtfo.
Disgrace is right. Can the bums cash in on this fire sale?
Quote from: SD on January 07, 2011, 09:32:00 AM
I agree, the HOF should have no standards. Screw everyone, let them all in. Maybe McGwire makes it in but it's obvious the HOF committee agrees with my stance. So there's that.
congrats?
again, its not about standards.
hitler, stalin and bush are all over history museums. not good people, right? well i guess they dont have any standards.
its not about what you catch feelings over or who you think was in the right. these players existed. they did what they did. we cant simply eliminate select portions of history because they dont adhere to our lofty standards of personal conduct.
bush stalin and hitler would not be in the world leaders HOF
terrible analogy
you wanna have a steroid era wing at the HOF be my guest....but these guys do not under any circumstances get their own bust up in that peezy
Quote from: ice grillin you on January 07, 2011, 01:29:49 PM
bush stalin and hitler would not be in the world leaders HOF
terrible analogy
you wanna have a steroid era wing at the HOF be my guest....but these guys do not under any circumstances get their own bust up in that peezy
I'm starting to think Todd's a retard
HOF comparisons:
george bush = randy ready
stalin = john cangelosi
hitler = bartman
its not a world leaders hall of fame analogy, its a history analogy.
the baseball hall of fame isnt just a shrine for the great players, its a shrine for all things baseball and its history. and whether you want to admit or not, steroids are a part of that, just like commies, nazis and retarded texans are in a world historical sense.
you put shoeless joe in and say he was an illiterate hick moron who took some money to throw some games but still did this in the 1919 world series.
you put rose in and you say he bet on baseball and hes banned for life.
you put mcgwire in and say he hit 3000 home runs but he was a roided up freakshow.
you put bonds in and say he did this before the roids, this during and this after.
people then make their own judgments, we dont make them for them.
shoeless joe and rose can be in since their deeds didnt artificially inflate their numbers
steroids absolutely do that and since its numbers that make the sport and the HOF so sacred roid heads should not be in
and the hall of fame is not about history its about special achievments...put mcgwire in the smithsonian american history museum if you want...i have no problem with that
Quote from: ice grillin you on January 07, 2011, 03:01:28 PM
shoeless joe and rose can be in since their deeds didnt artificially inflate their numbers
steroids absolutely do that and since its numbers that make the sport and the HOF so sacred roid heads should not be in
valid point but where do you then begin to judge what mcgwire, sosa, bonds, raffy, etc. did on steroids and when they were clean? do we know for sure? do we just assume they were "cheating" their entire careers? and do we loop someone who might look the part but never really came up in the discussion like jeff bagwell into the group?
you start walking a fine line between good and bad when you do that. with that, as you said, they should define what exactly the voting procedures should be for steroids. some definite rules need to be set. but since they are not, since there is noting, then what, we randomly assign guilt and just say you juiced in 1998 so youre out?
Quoteand the hall of fame is not about history its about special achievments...put mcgwire in the smithsonian american history museum if you want...i have no problem with that
it absolutely is about history
im not saying you put in willie wilson because he did the most coke or lefty williams in because he was one of the 1919 black sox, but you cant simply ignore someone who hit 600 home runs because they were on steroids for a portion of their careers. now you can say that they would be 300 home run hitters if they didnt take roids...that might or might not be true. we cant really say. we do know that their power hitting capabilities were aided by this, which is something you directly mention on their plaques.
i already said a determination has to be made as to when the steroid era started and began....once you do that you find out how many games of a particular players career were played in that time frame and if that number equals 75% or more of his total games played he doesnt make it
and no i dont care about the players who fall into that definition but maybe didnt do steroids...tough luck for them and chances are they did them anyway...im on the toher side of the fence from rjs in that id rather have a couple deserving players miss out than put one single non deserving player in...the sporta nd the hall are bigger than any one player
so as a good liberal you believe in guilt by association?
were arent talking about going to jail we are talking about a sports hall of fame...analogy king killin it again
anyway how many players were:
1. steroid era guys
2. HOF locks
3. not in anyway associated with roids
Quote from: ice grillin you on January 07, 2011, 09:54:41 AM
i would put a committee together to determine when the steriod era was...put players who used on the committe coaches gm's strength coaches ect....anyone and everyone who could come up with a time period of when steriods became out of control in the game
1993 - 2003 is pretty much it.
lenny dykstra was doing steroids long before 1993
Quote from: SD on January 07, 2011, 12:49:00 PM
And how do you know he wasn't on roids when he hit 49 HRs? Canseco was already on the team at that point.
You tell me:
(http://cdn2.iofferphoto.com/img/item/842/117/66/qUGIJlUpHRthWiD.jpg)
Just imagine how empty the Pro Football HOF would be if they kicked out the roid users. Between 1970 and 1990 you'd just have a lot of WRs and DBs.
Quote from: MDS on January 08, 2011, 01:22:44 PM
lenny dykstra was doing steroids long before 1993
There were players on roids for at least 20 years before 93, but in terms of it kind of getting out of control, 93-03 is pretty much it (give or take a year or 2 on the front end). Prior to that, the % of players juicing up wasn't nearly as bad.
Gil Meche is calling it a career:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Retiring-Gil-Meche-puts-a-price-tag-on-his-pride?urn=mlb-309149
Rays sign Manny Ramirez and Johnny Damon
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Idiots-reunite-Manny-Ramirez-Johnny-Damon-sign?urn=mlb-310904
Pettitte is retiring
LOLYankees
Wow. Good thing they landed Cliff Lee.
Ha (http://www.crossingbroad.com/2011/02/alex-rodriguez-is-a-colossal-douchebag.html)
I choked on my beer when they showed that. Good stuff.
totally pointless but awesome that people take the time for shtein like this
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12877 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12877)
Quote from: phattymatty on February 09, 2011, 02:06:55 PM
totally pointless but awesome that people take the time for shtein like this
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12877 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12877)
Cool.
first this:
http://www.csnphilly.com/02/11/11/The-myth-of-The-Machine/landing_word_street.html?blockID=408491&feedID=718&qv=1#bp
which led to omg...this:
http://nyc.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/pat-burrell-says-hello/
I'm agnostic but that might just change my entire basis for faith.
Pat = God.
I-95 axis of power (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/02/14/spring.training.preview/index.html?eref=sihp)
I like this blurb:
Quote8. Which Comes First?
Barry Bonds actually goes to trial (scheduled for March after three years of delays), Bud Selig's special committee actually hands in its report on whether the Athletics can explore a move to San Jose (Dean Smith never ran a four corners this well) or Oliver Perez goes seven innings (not seen in three years and $24 million ago)?
Miguel Cabrera had a fun day (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6131020)
Ya know - when the Blue Jays miraculously unloaded that awful Vernon Wells contract you think they would be happy to be out from under one of the worst deals ever.
But now they sign Jose Bautista to a farging $64M deal.
Jose Bautista.
He of a high of 16HRs before last years break out.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bautijo02.shtml
Nats fans talking smack (http://www.crossingbroad.com/2011/02/lets-make-fun-of-the-mets-and-nats.html#more)
Everything about that video is painfully awesome. Talking trash to the camera old school WWF style. The pull up bar in the door way. The beach towel. The leather jacket. The silent dude just nodding in agreement. The only thing missing was Mean Gene Okerlund standing off to the side holding a mic.
i like how his notes are on the ground
at least memorize your pablum, loser
....yeah...pablum.
appears as tho adam wainwright might be out for the year
3 umpires announced their retirements today (Crawford, Reilly, Meriweather)
Remember the dickhead that baited Choke before throwing him out, resulting in Oswalt playing LF? That prick got promoted to full-time majors. yay
is it harder to get fired as a teacher or an umpire because how do cb bucknor and laz diaz still have jobs?
Quote from: BigEd76 on February 23, 2011, 05:05:54 PM
3 umpires announced their retirements today (Crawford, Reilly, Meriweather)
Remember the dickhead that baited Choke before throwing him out, resulting in Oswalt playing LF? That prick got promoted to full-time majors. yay
Yeah, what was his address and phone number again?
CB Bucknor is goddamn awful. I love watching him call a game (non-Phils) because his strikezone changes on each pitch. he's oblivious to whatever is going on around him too.
Quote from: ice grillin you on February 23, 2011, 12:06:42 PM
appears as tho adam wainwright might be out for the year
Getting Tommy John surgery.
Chris Carpenter left his spring training game due to injury. Cardinalols
Gonna drive LaRussa to drink.
brewers win total going thru the roof
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on March 01, 2011, 02:27:46 PM
Gonna drive LaRussa to fall asleep on his steering wheel.
Aramis Ramirez and Carlos Silva throw down (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=6175209)
(http://cdn.wl.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/baseball_flowchart.jpg)
It'd be cooler if the image wasn't incomplete. And maybe if it was small enough to fit on the screen.
What's incomplete about it? Unless you're web page doesn't of a scroll bar at the bottom..
I was disappointed with the final determining factor for the Phils, but some of them were pretty funny for the other teams.
Yeah, it's not letting me scroll over so the image cuts off right after the Phillies box....so it's not like I'm missing much anyway. I saw the whole thing though by going direct to the website. Next time, try reducing the image size just a little so it all fits on the screen.
Braves coach loses an eye after a line drive hit him in the face (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6223098)
ok time for face shields.
Coaches always say to keep your eye on the ball. I like it when people practice what they preach.
well thechnically his eye was on the ball.
Quote from: smeags on March 16, 2011, 12:15:16 PM
ok time for face shields.
this brings up a decent point...when coolbaugh died, mlb implemented all base coaches wear that goofy helmet you get from six flags when youre 5 for knocking over a few pins with a water gun..
will this have any long-term effect in equipment? i really hope not, but it wouldnt shock me in the least..
yeah it wouldnt surprise me at all if that happened. funnt thought on that, can you imagine bowa's reaction if he has to wear one ?
he probably isn't going to be required to wear on working at MLB network
i meant with the assumption that he gets back into the game.
No you didn't. You thought he was still an active base coach. Admit it so we can all move on, dummy.
no, i'd rather you be stuck on that.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/mar/21/211648/rays-manager-maddon-has-fan-ejected-for-racial-rem/news-breaking/
hahaha... maddon is hilarious.
you can say whatever you want, whenever you want.
except the n word. then motherfargers be goin' into the stands & shtein.
clowns.