Just curious, but who else thinks this is going to end very badly.
Not even the Russian mob would have an easy time getting Polonium 210.
The fall of Putin's government, and the potential arrest of key members of his gov't - yikes.
Will that be so politically dangerous as to get him a free pass?
I don't know, but it is certainly heating up. And this bloke ain't the first Putin critic to go down under strange circumstance.
Death Spray is the new WMD.
I can't get over the choice of poisons. Polonium. That's really hard to come by.
It definitely points at a government, especially one with a grand history of poison research.
Why not use something more benign, more common?
And as to your point, MURP, there's an article on CNN.com about that exact issue.
Its a crazy story, i wish it was getting more presstime here in the US. Putin seems to be trying too hard at keeping people quiet if he's bringing out Polonium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium
QuoteAnalysis: Who killed Alexander Litvinenko?
By STEFAN NICOLA
UPI Germany Correspondent
BERLIN, Nov. 27 (UPI) -- The mysterious poisoning of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko has cast a dark shadow on the Kremlin, as he had investigated two high-profile affairs that have the potential to seriously embarrass the Russian government.
One of the last photographs taken of the former KGB and FSB spy foreshadowed what was soon to come: Lying on a large white pillow in a London hospital with tubes attached to his chest, his head bald and eyes barely open, Litvinenko resembled a cancer patient in his final hours.
When he succumbed last Thursday to the radioactive and thus poisonous isotope polonium-210 that unidentified individuals had managed to feed into his body, doctors lost a relentless fight to save the 43-year-old's life.
The case has now been turned over to Scotland Yard, and it is one of the most high-profile spy killings in the country's history since the man whom Litvinenko charged with his murder sits at the helm of the Russian government.
"You may succeed in silencing one man but the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr. Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life," said Litvinenko's statement, read out by fellow dissident and friend Alex Goldfarb last Friday. "May God forgive you for what you have done, not only to me but to beloved Russia and its people."
The Kremlin has of course denied any involvement in the killing, calling such allegations "absolute nonsense."
Before his mysterious poisoning, Litvinenko probed the assassination of investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya. Moscow has come under attack after Politkovskaya, one of the most fiercely anti-Kremlin Russian media figures, was found shot dead on Oct. 7 in the elevator of her apartment building in Moscow.
But evidence in the Politkovskaya case may not have been Litvinenko's hottest material: The London Times reported Monday that he had also drawn up an extensive dossier -- which is now in the hands of Scotland Yard -- dealing with the Kremlin's forced takeover of oil firm Yukos.
Litvinenko had given the dossier to Leonid Nevzlin, the former deputy head of Yukos, who fled to Israel after Moscow sold off his company.
"Alexander had information on crimes committed with the Russian Government's direct participation," Nevzlin told the London Times after he had given the file to the authorities.
Investigators confirmed rumors that Litvinenko had managed to uncover "startling" new material in the affair, which has seen several former Yukos officials disappear or die in mysterious circumstances while the company's former head and the most prominent Yukos victim, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, has been jailed.
Litvinenko, in the hours and days before his death, apparently passed on the names of a number of people linked to the Kremlin that have targeted him.
"At present we have a bewildering number of theories and names put to us, and we must establish some firm evidence," one individual close to the investigation told the London Times.
The long list of enemies comes at no surprise: Litvinenko for the past six years has repeatedly published criticism of Putin and the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the successor to the KGB; he wrote a book called 'Blowing up Russia: Terror from Within,' alleging that the Russian spy service orchestrated the 1999 apartment block bombings in Russia that killed more than 300 people and were later used to justify military offensives in Chechnya. At the time, the former spy was already in seemingly safe London, where in 2000, he sought political asylum after he had left Russia because he faced prison time there because of spectacular allegations against the FSB.
In 1998, Litvinenko, then a FSB specialist who fought terrorism and organized crime, announced at a news conference that his superiors had ordered him to kill Boris Berezovsky, who at the time was one of Boris Yeltsin's top security officials.
Litvinenko was arrested and imprisoned, and fled to Britain soon after his release; Berezovsky did the same.
In the past years, the Kremlin has tried to polish Russia's image; with the Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Moscow managed to up the government's standing abroad. The two recent murders, however, have severely tarnished Russia's image and could significantly cloud EU-Russian relations.
In light of the latest spy killing, politicians in Western Europe have urged their governments to press Moscow with their concerns.
Menzies Campbell, a British opposition politician, according to the London Times said the government should have been "much tougher" on Putin and added that British-Russian relations would have to be re-considered if Litvinenko's killing was due to "state terrorism."
Government officials in Britain and in Germany are much less aggressive, and critics say this is due to Europe's growing dependence on Russian energy supplies. Russian-EU relations have recently been quite rocky in the wake of bilateral tensions with Poland and Georgia.
But Andreas Schockenhoff, responsible for German-Russian relations for German Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives, said the reasons were different. "We must not put Russia under general suspicion," he told the Berliner Zeitung newspaper.
Observers note it wouldn't make much sense for Moscow to go to great lengths and risk internationl isolation to eliminate a man who, despite his fierce and numerous anti-Kremlin writings, never managed to destabilize Putin.
On the other hand, polonium-210, the radioactive isotope found in Litvinenko's body, points to either a state-sponsored assassin or at least one who is able to pull some strings: A very rare element in nature, polonium is found in uranium ores at very low quantities and getting your hands onto it is extremely difficult, Andrea Sella, a chemistry professor at University College London, told the London Times.
"This is not the sort of thing that amateurs could have cooked up in a bathtub. You would have to go to a nuclear lab such as Oak Ridge, Los Alamos or Harwell -- or to one of the Russian ones."
it's like a movie come to life. crazy story which hopefully gets even nuttier before the next culture fad takes over the news and makes this disapear off the press pages.
I hadn't even heard of this until this thread here at CF. I went to wikipedia and was reading about Litvinenko. I know it's not the most reliable source but basically the jist of it is that this Litvinenko character worked for the KGB then got out of it and started telling people about all the bad things they had done and all of the things Putin was involved in? And then I'm assuming people think that the KGB poisoned this guy? That is nuts.
Quote from: MURP on November 27, 2006, 02:53:18 PM
it's like a movie come to life.
I was just thinking the same thing. Crazy, crazy ish right there.
Fascinating story. Someone should write a book.
If a former CIA spook did what Litvinenko did, y'all would be calling him a traitor, and anyone who took him or his shady termination seriously a whacko conspiracy nut.
Just sayin.
It'd still be fascinating.
Who was that CIA dude they arrested a few years ago in VA? Robert something...
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on November 27, 2006, 04:37:24 PM
Fascinating story. Someone should write a book.
"If I Did It 2"
By: OJ Simpson
Mystery illness hits former Russian PM (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1bc23f9c-7f21-11db-b193-0000779e2340.html)
I don't care what happened. Putin is scum. He's one shady character. He's one person the world could do without
Bush needs to go first. He's the bigger villain.
Bush is just an idiot. His sidekicks are the real villians. Putin is an ex- KGB spy as we all know and has done unknown countless shady acts with his owns hands and orders.
Well, so was Litvinenko. What's your point?
They both may feel they are serving their country's best interest, even if they aren't. Just like I'm sure GW does (I agree with you, mussa, that Cheney and Rove are the problem).
Hard to tell truth from fiction. But I don't think a group wanting to implicate Putin/Russia could've gotten their hands on Po210. It's way too hard to access. Maybe Putin thought that the London cops would never figure out the poison. Otherwise, use something more common. There's plenty of lethal poisons out there, that work quickly enough Litvinenko can't spill his guts before he's martyred.
'Former Russian PM poisoned' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=419497&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5)
Putin is really settling all family business lately.
Quote from: MadMarchHare on November 30, 2006, 06:31:55 PM
Well, so was Litvinenko. What's your point?
They both may feel they are serving their country's best interest, even if they aren't. Just like I'm sure GW does (I agree with you, mussa, that Cheney and Rove are the problem).
Hard to tell truth from fiction. But I don't think a group wanting to implicate Putin/Russia could've gotten their hands on Po210. It's way too hard to access. Maybe Putin thought that the London cops would never figure out the poison. Otherwise, use something more common. There's plenty of lethal poisons out there, that work quickly enough Litvinenko can't spill his guts before he's martyred.
The point is Putin is russia's president. We were comparing Bush and Putin.
They're comparable...except Bush has brought hella more ruin to the world than Putin could ever dream of..
Quote from: Diomedes on December 01, 2006, 10:45:45 AM
They're comparable...except Bush has brought hella more ruin to the world than Putin could ever dream of..
(http://www.misterkitty.org/shaindle/dramaqn.jpg)
150,000 dead innocent Iraqis.
damn near 3000 dead U.S. soldiers
tens of thousands injured
billions wasted and billions funnelled into war making corporations
civil liberties in U.S. abolished
Iraq infrastructure completely demolished
yeah...I'm a drama queen.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on November 27, 2006, 04:37:24 PM
Fascinating story. Someone should write a book.
isn't that why you are going to college for journalism?
Yeah, I'm not buying into the argument that Bush is only guilty of being clueless and that it's the people around him who are really at fault. Yes, lot's of things happen in the government that the president is unaware of. No matter how good or bad a president is, there's always going to be shady things going on that he doesn't know about. It's just the nature of the beast. But Bush is responsible for a lot of the mistakes being made by this administration. And the bottom line is he's the friggin President and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on his watch. He's had plenty of opportunities to fix his mistakes and he hasn't....because he thinks he's doing the right thing.
Geez, now I feel like I'm talking about Reid. And that pisses me off even more.
FIRE BUSH!!
Litvinenko's Wife tests positive (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/01/D8LO8R5O0.html)
Mario Scaramella, an Italian security expert who met the Russian exile on the day that he fell ill. - also tests positive (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2482990,00.html#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=World)
Quote© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
Alexander Litvinenko before he was poisoned
LONDON – Reports that KGB defector Alexander Litvinenko converted to Islam before his mysterious poisoning with radioactive polonium 210 is raising suspicions that he may have been involved in a plot to smuggle the deadly substance to terrorist groups willing to pay millions even for a gram, Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin is reporting today.
Scotland Yard detectives are now trying to discover if Litvinenko had any secret links with Islamic extremist terror groups, the London Sunday Express is reporting.
Their biggest fear, the paper reports, is that Litvinenko, who died of polonium-210 poisoning in a London hospital, may have been helping al-Qaida or other extremist groups get hold of radioactive material to be used in a devastating "dirty" atom bomb.
Britain's secret intelligence service MI6 had earlier learned that al-Qaida was prepared to pay $3 million a gram for polonium 210, G2 Bulletin reported last week.
Litvinenko's friend Mario Scaramella now says the late spy helped smuggle radioactive material from Russia to Switzerland in 2000. Litvinenko was also known to have sympathies with Chechen rebels, seeking to break away from Moscow and create an independent Muslim state.
Litvinenko's conversion to Islam was announced by his next-door neighbor, moderate Muslim and Chechen dissident Akhmed Zakayev, who revealed: "He was read to from the Koran the day before he died and told his wife that he wanted to be buried in accordance with Muslim tradition."
Litvinenko's body is still so "radiologically hot" that an autopsy cannot yet be conducted. It is stored in a lead-lined vault in a London morgue.
Polonium 210 has been identified in five separate locations around London.
One is the luxury Millennium Hotel, near the U.S. Embassy. Another is a building in Mayfair that houses the office of Boris Berezovsky, a close friend of Litvinenko, and now an avowed enemy of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
While the government has insisted there is no cause for panic, MI6 and Britain's internal security service, MI5, have jointly launched a top-priority hunt on how further quantities of Polonium 210 could be smuggled by al-Qaida.
The hunt began a week ago in Peshawar. The ancient Pakistan city hosts a joint MI6/CIA surveillance operation supported by America's National Security Agency satellite surveillance.
Using the latest cyber-technology, the intelligence officers in Peshawar picked up a short-burst transmission from somewhere in Peshawar's Old Town. It was in response to a call that appeared to have come from beyond the towering Khyber Pass, possibly from Afghanistan.
The call was automatically recorded on one of the computers in the offices the MI6/CIA team share.
Just as automatically, it was dispatched down the line through cyberspace to GCHQ, the British Government Headquarters in the Cotswold town of Cheltenham. Simultaneously it reached America's NSA at Fort Meade, Md.
The words from Peshawar were part of the trillions of words in 500 languages that the GCHQ/NSA super computers are programmed to listen to, shift, reject or retain so they can be analyzed by the thousands of experts both GCHQ and NSA employ.
By late last week, MI6 knew of al-Qaida's offer to purchase Polonium 210.
I have to believe that is a planted story. Put it out there that he was really a Terrorist.
What farging bullshtein. Come on. Polonium 210 is an alpha ray emitter. Alpha rays can't penetrate the dead skin on your body. The worst it can do, unless it is ingested, is cause chemical burns to the skin. And that would require significant exposure times.
A group like Al Qaida would want a gamma emitter, like uranium or plutonium. A dirty bomb with an alpha emitter would be largely useless.
And as a poison, there are a hell of a lot cheaper, mundane and equally effective poisons out there. Christ, slip a guy a couple grams of acetaminophen (Tylenol) and he'll die of liver failure over the course of about a week. If you want a guy to suffer....
So...why exactly did they use Polonium 210?