thing that jumps out at me here is that warren moon played this decade...i didnt realize he was that recent
how sure are you that aikman gets in on a 1-10 scale? 8
does art monk finally make it? no
whos your list? reggie....aikman....madden
Troy Aikman - Quarterback - 1989-2000 Dallas Cowboys
Harry Carson - Linebacker - 1976-1988 New York Giants
L.C. Greenwood - Defensive End - 1969-1981 Pittsburgh Steelers
Russ Grimm - Guard - 1981-1991 Washington taterskins
Claude Humphrey - Defensive End - 1968-1978 Atlanta Falcons,
1979-1981 Philadelphia Eagles (injured reserve - 1975)
Michael Irvin - Wide Receiver - 1988-1999 Dallas Cowboys
Bob Kuechenberg - Guard - 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins
John Madden - Coach - 1969-1978 Oakland Raiders
Art Monk - Wide Receiver - 1980-1993 Washington taterskins,
1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Warren Moon - Quarterback - 1984-1993 Houston Oilers,
1994-1996 Minnesota Vikings, 1997-1998 Seattle Seahawks,
1999-2000 K.C. Chiefs
Derrick Thomas - Linebacker - 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Thurman Thomas - Running Back - 1988-1999 Buffalo Bills,
2000 Miami Dolphins
Reggie White - Def. End/Def. Tackle - 1985-1992 Phil. Eagles,
1993-1998 Green Bay Packers, 2000 Carolina Panthers
Rayfield Wright - Tackle - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
Gary Zimmerman - Tackle - 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings,
1993-1997 Denver Broncos
Quote from: ice grillin you on January 11, 2006, 11:36:06 AM
thing that jumps out at me here is that warren moon played this decade...i didnt realize he was that recent
how sure are you that aikman gets in on a 1-10 scale? 10
does art monk finally make it? no
whos your list? reggie....aikman....irvin :puke
My rankings...
1.Grimm, T. Thomas, White
2. Aikman, Carson, Monk
3. Moon, D. Thomas, Irvin
4. Zimmerman, Madden, everyone else...
off the field ish will keep irvin out at least one more year...and if art monk isnt in yet then i dont see how irvin gets in on year two
Aikman
White
Monk
Madden
You know...if Troy didn't win those SBs he wouldn't be a HOFer, IMO. His raw numbers aren't overwhelming like a guy like Marino's were. Obviously Marino played longer and Troy was cut down by concussions...but his TDs and other numbers are somewhat low.
I don't know if Monk will make it, but he should.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 11, 2006, 07:51:16 PM
You know...if Troy didn't win those SBs he wouldn't be a HOFer, IMO.
I don't know if Monk will make it, but he should.
Agreed.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 11, 2006, 07:51:16 PM
You know...if Troy didn't win those SBs he wouldn't be a HOFer, IMO.
Sure but so what? The point of the game is to win Super Bowls. Tom Brady will be elected to the Hall of Fame as well.
Absolutely ridiculous that Art Monk was nominated instead of Andre Reed, a better receiver with better stats from the same era.
IMHO Monk has no chance to make it in this year (Moon, Aikman, White, Thomas, and Irvin would all easily get in before him), nor should he. As I've said before:
Quote from: QB Eagles on February 04, 2005, 11:16:33 AM
Lynn Swann doesn't deserve to be in, but making one error with Swann doesn't mean they should repeat it with Monk.
I compare players to other players of their day. Steve Largent was selected to 7 Pro Bowls. 9 times he was in the top #10 in receptions, 8 times he was in the top #10 in yards, 8 times he was in the top #10 in receiving touchdowns.
In comparison, Art Monk was selected to 3 Pro Bowls, 4 times he was in the top #10 in receptions, 3 times he was in the top #10 in yards, and only once was he in the top #10 in receiving touchdowns. Those are very similar to Swann's numbers. In absolute numbers Monk was better, but relative to the other players of their day, Monk and Swann are equals. Monk was just a good receiver who hung around for a long time, catching a lot of 8-yard hooks in Joe Gibbs' scheme, not an all-time great. Longevity means something, but not enough to catapult someone into the Hall.
In terms of stats and greatness relative to the rest of the league, Mushin Muhammad is today's Art Monk. Do you guys think Muhammad will make the Hall?
My comments on the finalists, FWIW:
Troy Aikman - Yes, he belongs. You can't really compare him to Dan Marino because Aikman was operating a more balanced offense than Marino was running for most of his career. He wasn't the greatest Dallas QB - Roger Staubach gets that distinction - but he did get the job done. I was rooting against him and his team every step of the way (same with Staubach), but he's a Hall of Famer, no question
Harry Carson - Poor Harry, he demanded to be removed from consideration a couple of years ago because he keeps making it to this stage only to fall short. I can imagine the frustration. And if it was up to me, he'd be in. Another guy I was always rooting against, but he was terrific for many seasons. Here's hoping he finally gets his bust in Canton!
L.C. Greenwood - Outstanding player with a great team. Hard to not say he belongs.
Russ Grimm - Guards are underrepresented in the HOF, and Grimm was a terrific one. Vote him in!
Claude Humphrey - Big Claude had his greatest seasons with Atlanta, but was an excellent pass rushing specialist for the Eagles. He's borderline. I'd vote for Greenwood first.
Michael Irvin - Wow, I never liked this guy, but had to respect his talent. He'll probably make it eventually, but not this year. Let Troy go first. In fact, make him wait until Emmitt goes in.
Bob Kuechenberg - Another outstanding guard, and the other starting guard for the Dolphins during that period, Larry Little, is already in. Was he that much better than Kuechenberg? Vote him in already!
John Madden - Okay, people like to rip on Madden on the board, but I've always liked the guy. That said, while I think he was a very good head coach, I would stop short at saying he was a great one. Would he even be getting consideration if he hadn't had a lengthy broadcasting career to keep him in the public eye?
Art Monk - QB Eagles has made me want to ponder Monk's qualifications some more (I well remember our discussions last year at this time about him!). He was very consistent for a long time - at the very least a very good receiver, and with winning teams. A strong borderline candidate. I'm open to persuasion either way.
Warren Moon - Moon didn't win anything, but neither did Sonny Jurgensen, Y.A. Tittle, or Dan Marino. I wouldn't blame him for that. He was an outstanding athlete and QB who put up some amazing numbers. And all after he'd spent his first few professional seasons in the CFL. Vote him in!
Derrick Thomas - Terrific linebacker for years, clearly considered one of the best in the game during his career. He belongs.
Thurman Thomas - Yep, he deserves a spot, too. Another consistently outstanding player, clearly one of the best at his position in his prime. If Scott Norwood had made that field goal against the Giants, he would have been the MVP of that Super Bowl, IMO.
Reggie White - No one should even think twice. If Reggie wasn't a Hall of Famer, no one was.
Rayfield Wright - I'm surprised that he wasn't considered sooner. Definitely one of the top tackles of his era (but not as good as Bob Brown, who is already in the HOF! ;) ), and an important part of the first wave of Dallas championship teams.
Gary Zimmerman - Probably will get voted in at some point. Another tackle who was clearly recognized as one of the best in the game during his career.
Obviously, they can't all go in, even though almost all of them deserve to. I wouldn't want to be one of the voters, I'd never be able to whittle the list down each year!
Good stuff FS64 - I always enjoy reading what you have to say.
Quote from: Fan_Since_64 on January 12, 2006, 01:23:39 PM
John Madden - Okay, people like to rip on Madden on the board, but I've always liked the guy. That said, while I think he was a very good head coach, I would stop short at saying he was a great one. Would he even be getting consideration if he hadn't had a lengthy broadcasting career to keep him in the public eye?
I would even go so far as to say he should be nominated/enshrined *as* a broadcaster. I think he changed the way color was done, and brought new aspects of the game to the forefront.
Quote from: Cerevant on January 12, 2006, 01:37:17 PM
I would even go so far as to say he should be nominated/enshrined *as* a broadcaster. I think he changed the way color was done, and brought new aspects of the game to the forefront.
most notably babbling incoherently and drawing circles around things not related to the football game.
i like him too though.
Quote from: Cerevant on January 12, 2006, 01:37:17 PM
I would even go so far as to say he should be nominated/enshrined *as* a broadcaster. I think he changed the way color was done, and brought new aspects of the game to the forefront.
Good point, I could go along with that.
Whatever one thinks of Madden's coaching or broadcasting abilities, he could be enshrined for the impact of his video game series alone. Looking over his entire body of work, one must say he's been a towering figure in the world of professional football and deserves enshrinement.
White, Aikman, Moon, Kuechenberg
Quote from: QB Eagles on January 12, 2006, 06:47:54 PM
Whatever one thinks of Madden's coaching or broadcasting abilities, he could be enshrined for the impact of his video game series alone. Looking over his entire body of work, one must say he's been a towering figure in the world of professional football and deserves enshrinement.
Agree completely. His coaching, TV work and video game all mean he should be in the Hall of Fame. All my school friends who like American football got into it through the video game. And I would expect 64 to agree with me that the constant snubbing of Pat Fischer for Canton is incomprehensible.
In order of preference:
Reggie White - Def. End/Def. Tackle - 1985-1992 Phil. Eagles,
1993-1998 Green Bay Packers, 2000 Carolina Panthers
Russ Grimm - Guard - 1981-1991 Washington taterskins
Harry Carson - Linebacker - 1976-1988 New York Giants
Troy Aikman - Quarterback - 1989-2000 Dallas Cowboys
L.C. Greenwood - Defensive End - 1969-1981 Pittsburgh Steelers
Rayfield Wright - Tackle - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
Bob Kuechenberg - Guard - 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins
Derrick Thomas - Linebacker - 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Thurman Thomas - Running Back - 1988-1999 Buffalo Bills,
2000 Miami Dolphins
Quote from: henchmanUK on January 17, 2006, 05:15:33 AM
And I would expect 64 to agree with me that the constant snubbing of Pat Fischer for Canton is incomprehensible.
I do indeed! Pete Retzlaff, Maxie Baughan, and Al Wistert, too! ;)
Be sure to visit Profootballhof.com on Saturday (Feb. 4) for the announcement of the Pro Football Hall of Fame's Class of 2006!
Charged with the task of selecting the class are the Hall of Fame's 39-member Board of Selectors who will meet that morning in Detroit, home of Super Bowl XL, to determine the newest group of Enshrinees.
Profootballhof.com will stream the announcement press conference live, beginning at 2:00 p.m. ET. More Information >>>
Bylaws for Pro Football Hall of Fame stipulate that the class can include no less than three and no more than six members.
The Class of 2006 will be selected from a list of 15 finalists
Listed alphabetically, the 15 finalists with their positions, teams, and years follow:
Troy Aikman - Quarterback - 1989-2000 Dallas Cowboys
Harry Carson - Linebacker - 1976-1988 New York Giants
L.C. Greenwood - Defensive End - 1969-1981 Pittsburgh Steelers
Russ Grimm - Guard - 1981-1991 Washington taterskins
Claude Humphrey - Defensive End - 1968-1978 Atlanta Falcons, 1979-1981 Philadelphia Eagles (injured reserve - 1975)
Michael Irvin - Wide Receiver - 1988-1999 Dallas Cowboys
Bob Kuechenberg - Guard - 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins (injured reserve - 1984)
John Madden - Coach - 1969-1978 Oakland Raiders
Art Monk - Wide Receiver - 1980-1993 Washington taterskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Warren Moon - Quarterback - 1984-1993 Houston Oilers, 1994-1996 Minnesota Vikings, 1997-1998 Seattle Seahawks, 1999-2000 Kansas City Chiefs
Derrick Thomas - Linebacker - 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Thurman Thomas - Running Back - 1988-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Miami Dolphins
Reggie White - Defensive End/Defensive Tackle - 1985-1992 Philadelphia Eagles, 1993-1998 Green Bay Packers, 2000 Carolina Panthers
Rayfield Wright - Tackle - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
Gary Zimmerman - Tackle - 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-1997 Denver Broncos
Troy Aikman Leads Big Hall of Fame Class (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060204/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_hall_of_fame;_ylt=AlwtmSpuqbubEQ8bYAr5IDhI2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--)
And the new HOFers are:
Troy Aikman
Reggie White
Warren Moon
Harry Carson
John Madden
Rayfield Wright
Giant fans everywhere can finally cream themselves over Carson.
Good to see Moon make it. First ballot too. :yay
No argument from me on the final choices.
Also, Thurman Thomas might as well buy his plane ticket to Canton for next year.
Art Monk got shafted again. Wah Wah Wah.
Quote from: MDS on February 04, 2006, 07:10:34 PM
Art Monk got shafted again. Wah Wah Wah.
Didn't even make the final ten, and shouldn't have either.
Monk should make it. Peter King is keeping him out of the HOF.
But you know what? Since he didn't make it the Skins fans are crying. So that's good...
At least now i don't have to listen to all these loser Cowpuke fans down here cry about how the HOF has a Cowpuke bias and won't let any of them in. Two in one year=Cowpuke fans never have the right to bitch about it again.
Pukes fans are still whining about Irvin, I'm sure.
Prediction for next year: Thurman Thomas, Michael Irvin, Bruce Matthews, and whoever the senior committee comes up with.
If Jeff Legwold makes a strong enough attempt to garner support for Terrell Davis, I don't think his selection is impossible. I would rank it an outside shot for his first year though.
A bunch of ex-Eagles become eligible: Eric Allen, Randall Cunningham, Ricky Watters. I think Allen has the strongest chance, but it's an outside one for his first year.
Does anyone think Cunningham has a chance of being selected for the Hall?
He should be in the HOF.
Him and Eric Allen both.
bruce matthews is next year's lock...i think he made something like 18 consecutive pro bowls.
i think allen will eventually get in but i'm not sure about randall.
The case for Cunningham:
- 5 seasons with over 3,000 passing yards (1988-1990, 1994, 1998)
- 1988 Maxwell Club MVP
- 1990 Pro Football Writers Accociation of America MVP
- 1998 Maxwell Club MVP
- 1990 NFC Player of the Year- UPI
- 1992 Comback Player of the Year
- #24 all-time in Passing TDs (207)
- #27 all-time in Completions (2429)
- #28 all-time in Passing Yards (29,979)
- 35 Rushing TDs
- Anecdotal case for Cunningham is that he started the trend towards faster, more mobile QBs becoming the rule rather than the exception, and also being one of the first black QBs to become major stars.
The case against Cunningham:
- Only had two more seasons above 2000 passing yards (1987, 1992).
- Completed only 56.6% of passes over his career.
- Never led league in any major passing statistical categories.
- Only 3-6 as starting QB in playoffs (12 TDs/ 9 INT)
I know this list is far from complete (on either side). Feel free to add your stats or tidbits.
The case for Cunningham will hinge not on his stats but on his effect on the game. He's the prototype of the super athlete type of quarterback who is as deadly on the run as in the pocket. His stats will matter, but I think they work more against him than for him.
Quote from: mhunt on February 05, 2006, 12:39:15 PM
bruce matthews is next year's lock...i think he made something like 18 consecutive pro bowls.
i think allen will eventually get in but i'm not sure about randall.
I agree on all counts. As much as I'd like to think otherwise... I just don't see Randall with that great of a shot.
Quote from: Geowhizzer on February 05, 2006, 01:08:30 PM
The case for Cunningham:
- 5 seasons with over 3,000 passing yards (1988-1990, 1994, 1998)
- 1988 Maxwell Club MVP
- 1990 Pro Football Writers Accociation of America MVP
- 1998 Maxwell Club MVP
- 1990 NFC Player of the Year- UPI
- 1992 Comback Player of the Year
- #24 all-time in Passing TDs (207)
- #27 all-time in Completions (2429)
- #28 all-time in Passing Yards (29,979)
- 35 Rushing TDs
- Anecdotal case for Cunningham is that he started the trend towards faster, more mobile QBs becoming the rule rather than the exception, and also being one of the first black QBs to become major stars.
The case against Cunningham:
- Only had two more seasons above 2000 passing yards (1987, 1992).
- Completed only 56.6% of passes over his career.
- Never led league in any major passing statistical categories.
- Only 3-6 as starting QB in playoffs (12 TDs/ 9 INT)
I know this list is far from complete (on either side). Feel free to add your stats or tidbits.
Don't forget he's the NFL's all time leading rusher among QB's. (4,928 yds)
I sadly think that Randall's induction hopes sailed wide with Gary Anderson's kick in the NFCCG against the Falcons. And while it may not be justified, I think the voters will take into consideration, the fact that Cunningham never made it to the SB when casting their votes.
I, personally think he should be in there. Maybe not first ballot but he should get there none the less. Simply for the fact that he revolutionized the QB position. There had been scrambling QB's before in the league, but never to the same extreme as Randall. He was one of a kind in his day and paved the way for future QB's. Especially black QB's. McNair, McNabb, Culpepper, Vick, Stewart, etc. And whille we've all got our opinions about those guys, all 5 of them have been the starting QB in a Conf Championship game and 2 of them lead their teams to the SB.
I don't think Randall should be in the HoF. He was good. But not among the best ever.
allen has a better shot than cunningham, but DB's overall are scare in the HOF.
there are only 2 DBs that have played in the since 1985 in the HOF (Michael Haynes and Ronnie Lott). and Allen may have been overshadowed by Darrell Green, and Woodson over his career.
and i dont think randall was a HOF player either.
Quote from: Wingspan on February 06, 2006, 01:53:48 PM
Allen may have been overshadowed by Darrell Green, and Woodson over his career.
Don't forget Deion. I believe both of those players you mentioned will get into the HOF before Allen, if he ever gets in at all. I believe Green will be a first-ballot HOFer in 2008 and Woodson will be a first-ballot HOFer in 2009.
I don't think Randall Cunningham will ever be in the Hall of Fame.
Cunningham wasn't a HOF quarterback. Having said that I would still vote for him if I could. Changed a lot about the quarterback position.
Neither Cunningham nor Watters will get in. Allen might.
And Byers should, solely for that slobberknocker hit on Pepper Johnson in 1992(?).
Harry Carson and Warren Moon don't deserve it, IMO. Don't know enough about Rayfield Wright to make a judgement. Moon has nice numbers, but didn't get to a SB and played in the run-and-shoot, inflating his numbers. I'm not a huge Randall fan, but if Moon makes it and Randall doesn't that's a fargin' joke.
why? Moon was a much better quarterback than Randall was.
marino threw 100 times a game as well and only made one superbowl...should he be out as well
i agree on carson....him getting in is zesty like some toilet paper...randall has no business being anywhere close to the hall of fame and he should get in before stinkin harry carson
Quote from: ice grillin you on February 07, 2006, 10:55:49 AM
marino threw 100 times a game as well and only made one superbowl...should he be out as well
No, because Marino wasn't the product of a system. They threw a lot with him because he was good and their running game was zesty. The run and shoot had four wideouts all the time, Moon was simply a pilot for it. And, BTW, making one Super Bowl is still one more than Warren Moon made.
Quote from: Sun_Mo on February 07, 2006, 10:54:22 AM
why? Moon was a much better quarterback than Randall was.
I don't think either should get there, but Randall deserves it more for revolutionising the position.
Quote from: henchmanUK on February 07, 2006, 10:47:27 AM
Harry Carson and Warren Moon don't deserve it, IMO. Don't know enough about Rayfield Wright to make a judgement. Moon has nice numbers, but didn't get to a SB and played in the run-and-shoot, inflating his numbers. I'm not a huge Randall fan, but if Moon makes it and Randall doesn't that's a fargin' joke.
the one thing about moon, is if you count his CFL days, where he won 5 championships in a row he should be considered. it is the "professional" HOF, not an NFL HOF.
it's not moon's fault no one drafted him
moons nfl stats alone get him in...theres some players whos numbers supercede everything else and hes one of them...
Moon also only played 4 years in the R&S offense.
Peter King made a good argument for him. Fouts got in and Moon has better yards, TDs and playoff record.
Send him here then! (http://www.footballhof.com/)
Dan Fouts got in largely on his numbers. Never won a title, and he didn't do much before Air Coryell came to town.
DF under Tommy Prothro:
San Diego quarterback Dan Fouts.
DF under Don Coryell:
San Diego quarterback DAN FOUTS.
why would he be punished for the run n shoot??...thats ridiculous...at least it had the word run in it...miami was shoot and shoot...that was their 'system'...a system that let marino throw all the time...just cause it didnt have a fancy nickname doesnt mean its any different...the eagles currently imploy a run n shoot...but because reid is in that gay group of bill walsh homosexual diciples its instead referred to as the more prestigious west coast offense
plus at the time everyone was saying how you couldnt win with a run n shoot offense...kinda funny how now people are flipping the script and saying moon couldnt win with a run n shoot offense
Quote from: ice grillin you on February 07, 2006, 12:27:01 PM
why would he be punished for the run n shoot??...thats ridiculous...at least it had the word run in it...miami was shoot and shoot...that was their 'system'...a system that let marino throw all the time
Again, Marino threw all the time because he was good and they had zesty running backs, not because of the system. Shula was never afraid to run the ball, but didn't with Marino because he had a great quarterback and zesty running backs.
Then why'd Aikman make it? Talk about a system QB.
QuoteAgain, Marino threw all the time because he was good and they had zesty running backs, not because of the system. Shula was never afraid to run the ball, but didn't with Marino because he had a great quarterback and zesty running backs.
Are you arguing that they passed all the time rather than playing solid-well rounded offense because of a single player. That they ignored the running game, not because of the coach, but because of the QB? That's a crock of shtein.
Moon is easily a HOF QB, and his career was far more impressive than that of Randall Cunningham.
Arguing that he was the product of the Oilers system is simply idiotic, as he passed for over 4200 yards his first two seasons with the Vikings. One of those seasons alongside a 1,000-yard rusher.
Warren Moon is one of the all-time great quarterbacks.
Quote from: rjs246 on February 07, 2006, 12:58:33 PM
QuoteAgain, Marino threw all the time because he was good and they had zesty running backs, not because of the system. Shula was never afraid to run the ball, but didn't with Marino because he had a great quarterback and zesty running backs.
Are you arguing that they passed all the time rather than playing solid-well rounded offense because of a single player. That they ignored the running game, not because of the coach, but because of the QB? That's a crock of shtein.
Whose hands would you rather have the ball in? Dan Marino or Lorenzo Hampton and Sammie Smith?
I don't recall any HOF's lining up behind Moon either.
Quote from: EagleFeva on February 08, 2006, 08:05:14 AM
I don't recall any HOF's lining up behind Moon either.
[/quote
Not an HOFer, but I'd take Mike Rozier over any Miami RB in the Marino era. Not saying Moon wasn't a very good QB, just not HOF, IMO.
if moon isnt a hall of famer...then unless you win a championship no qb ever makes it again....simple as that
Quote from: henchmanUK on February 08, 2006, 08:13:10 AM
Quote from: EagleFeva on February 08, 2006, 08:05:14 AM
I don't recall any HOF's lining up behind Moon either.
[/quote
Not an HOFer, but I'd take Mike Rozier over any Miami RB in the Marino era. Not saying Moon wasn't a very good QB, just not HOF, IMO.
He threw for 50,000
NFL yards man, more than
70,000 when you factor in the CFL numbers... and like Phreak pointed out, only 4 years in the Run & Shoot where he "padded his stats".
- 17 years in the NFL.
- 9 time pro bowler.
- Threw for over 4,000 yds 4 times. (including his last full season)
So he wasn't fortunate enough to play in a Super Bowl. So what? He won the Grey Cup every year he played in the CFL except one.
Been meaning to get back to this discussion, because some interesting points have been made. I also took a look at the message board at the Pro Football Researcher Association site, and pretty much the same battles are being fought. I think the debate over who is a Hall of Famer and who isn't will never end because we all have our own criteria. But what is that criteria? It's easy to say "well, a Hall of Famer should have been a great player" but obviously, but how do we make that determination? I would suggest that there are three main criteria to look at:
Outstanding performance - Was the player clearly considered among the best at his position during at least a significant portion of his career? Did he get selected to All-Pro teams and Pro Bowls? If applicable, did he put up impressive statistics relative to the era he played in?
Key component of a winning team - Did the player play for a team that won at least one championship and/or contended regularly, and was he a key contributor to that team?
Significant career - Did the player have an impact on how the game is played? Was there a uniqueness to his career that makes it significant even if the other two criteria are questionable?
Obviously, many Hall of Famers fit more than one category - which certainly helps their case! Certain players, like Sammy Baugh, Don Hutson, and Jim Brown could arguably be put in all three categories. It also helps players like Jim Ringo, who was clearly considered to be one of the premier centers in the NFL before Vince Lombardi came along to build the Packers into a championship team, and Walter Payton, who was one of the top running backs in the NFL long before the Bears were Super Bowl ready.
Warren Moon, Dan Marino, and Dan Fouts didn't win any championships (and some earlier HOF QBs didn't either, such as Y.A. Tittle and Sonny Jurgensen - unless you want to count his benchwarming for Norm Van Brocklin in 1960 as playing for a championship team ;) ). They were recognized as among the elite at their position and certainly helped the teams that they played for achieve as much as they did - for instance, the Dolphins may not have won any Super Bowls with Marino at QB, but they regularly contended, and does anyone think they would have done as well if they'd decided to stick with David Woodley as the starting QB throughout the 80s instead of drafting Marino? Dan Fouts had a terrible supporting cast in his first few seasons, but I don't think Don Coryell minded having him - and his rocket arm, and toughness - around to make his downfield passing game work.
Troy Aikman probably falls closer to the second category - key component of a team that won championships. I always thought of him as a technician rather than a QB who could lift a team (ala Staubach). He rarely received All-Pro honors (although he did get selected to several Pro Bowls) and in fact typically lost out in that regard to his rival Steve Young - who fits into the first two categories quite nicely and was elected to the HOF without controversy last year.
If Randall Cunningham makes it - and it's a big if, in my mind - it will be primarily due to his fit in the third category. I predict a lot of debate!
randall!!!!!!!!
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/story.jsp?story_id=2235
Quote from: ice grillin you on October 27, 2006, 11:51:46 AM
randall!!!!
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/story.jsp?story_id=2235
Eric Allen is probably more deserving.
Quote from: ice grillin you on October 27, 2006, 11:51:46 AM
randall!!!!
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/story.jsp?story_id=2235
Also other Eagles:
Eric Allen
Harold Carmichael
Mark Bavaro
Richard Dent
Art monk
Dick Vermeil
Herschel Walker
Ricky Waters
Bruce Matthews should make it on the first try. I think Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed should make it, no questions asked. Beyond that, Michael Irvin and Derrick Thomas probably have a better chance than any of the non-Matthews first year candidates.
Terrell Davis and Randall should both spark some heated arguments within the selection committee (each is a unique case), but I think they will both fall well short.
dont you ever again call art monk an eagle....shame on you when you step thru...old dirty bastich...brooklyn zoo!
I hope Art Monk makes it this year. It'd be nice to hear those Extremers whine for another year, but Monk deserves it.
I also believe Cunningham should go in. But that is very debatable. But Eric Allen definitley deserves to go.
Jerry Jones is on that list. :-D
The thing witrh Cunningham is that one could argue he revolutionized the QB position. Without the likes of him, players like McNabb and Vick may not have made the NFL.
One could argue....
Quote from: ice grillin you on October 27, 2006, 12:02:15 PM
dont you ever again call art monk an eagle....shame on you when you step thru...old dirty bastich...brooklyn zoo!
settle down, Francis.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on October 27, 2006, 12:03:32 PM
I hope Art Monk makes it this year. It'd be nice to hear those Extremers whine for another year, but Monk deserves it.
Let's not have that argument again. ::)
We argued about Monk? I don't recall. :paranoid
Art Monk is as much an Eagle as Mark Bavaro...step off son
What's to argue about? He should be IN.
Quote from: QB Eagles on October 27, 2006, 12:01:22 PM
I think Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed should make it, no questions asked.
For the record, I think Thomas is a lock for this year. Reed will probably have to wait a while, but in my mind he's the best eligiable WR not in the HOF, certainly better than any all-time taterskins receiver not named Bobby or Charley.
Art Monk is as much an Eagle as Mark Bavaro...step off son
you missed the point dunny
hes also a lot more a taterskin...truth be told that whole list was pretty much an abomination...but i dont want any skins confused with being an eagle
and art monk should need a ticket to get in the hall of fame...he had two (three max) great years and then a whole bunch of good to lackluster years....eff longevity i want greatness in the hall
I'd absolutely LOVE it if Randall made it in. For some reason though, I just can't see it. Not on his 1st try anyway. Eric Allen has a better shot, IMO.. and I'm not even sure his chances are all that great.
eric allen should get in...i believe he is close to if not in the top five all-time interceptions for a cornerback...if he makes it tho it wont be until after darrell green gets in and hes not eligible until 08
Rickey Watters??? :paranoid
i beleive this is Na Brown's first year of eligibility.
Quote from: Wingspan on October 27, 2006, 02:10:30 PM
i beleive this is Na Brown's first year of eligibility.
He will get his own wing in the HOF and much like Brown himself, it will only be open twice a year.
C-
Quote from: Father Demon on October 27, 2006, 12:03:37 PM
The thing witrh Cunningham is that one could argue he revolutionized the QB position. Without the likes of him, players like McNabb and Vick may not have made the NFL.
One could argue....
dude, totally with you there. i loved randall back then although i would never admit it of course :paranoid loved buddy ryan too...somebody say 46? booya (dont quote me)
i must admit i was quite the balla using these eagles in tecmo bowl. allow me to polish off my tecmo supabowl rings :deion
randall didnt even crack the 25 semi finalists
and ken friggin stabler did....wtf!!
(http://www.philaflava.com/forum/images/smiles/dcracistemo0mp.gif)
I think everyone should buy a Cunningham jersey immediately to help balance this injustice.
Quote from: ice grillin you on November 16, 2006, 04:35:09 PM
randall didnt even crack the 25 semi finalists
and ken friggin stabler did....wtf!!
(http://www.philaflava.com/forum/images/smiles/dcracistemo0mp.gif)
Negro, please....
Stabler won a Super Bowl, Cunningham didn't. As much as I would love to see Randall in the HOF, this isn't about race.
ken stabler = brad johnson
randall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>both
Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl with a 22 passer rating. Trent Dilfer is also a "world" champion.
I think winning a Super Bowl is important for the legacy of great quarterbacks, but it doesn't turn an average or worse QB into a great one automatically.
^^Truth.com^^
I agree 100%. My argument was stating that there was a difference between the two, and that most likely weighed into it.
Randall won the MVP how many times? Personally, I think if you are the best player in the entire game for a year, you should probably be a near-automatic admission into the HoF... yes, I know that includes Favre favre FAVRUH and Kurt "I married a wire-haired mangoblin" Warner, but if you're that big a part of NFL history, then...
Anyway, farg Ken Stabler.
Quote from: FFatPatt on November 16, 2006, 05:50:46 PM
Randall won the MVP how many times? Personally, I think if you are the best player in the entire game for a year, you should probably be a near-automatic admission into the HoF... yes, I know that includes Favre favre FAVRUH and Kurt "I married a wire-haired mangoblin" Warner, but if you're that big a part of NFL history, then...
Anyway, farg Ken Stabler.
Favre should most definately be a HOF'er. If he would have retired when he when he should have, he'd probably be on the next ballot. Warner on the other hand, I dunno. He was a flash in the pan imo. Yes, he put up incredible numbers and broke a couple records I believe but his greatness was not sustained over an extended period of time. Going back to 1999 he's spent more total time on the bench than he has as a starter. And he hasn't been a good starter since 2001.
The HOF should be reserved strictly for players who were among the best in the league during their playing days and were able to sustain that superior level of play over an extended period of time.
A runningback having say 5 or 6 great years of football should get into the hall of fame because runningbacks have such a short life expectency in the NFL.
A quarterback should have to achieve greatness and maintain that level for probably at least 9 or 10 years before getting HOF consideration.
Brad Johnson should not go into the HOF because even though he's been a very good QB, at no time during his career was he ever really considered among the game's best QB's. He's had some excellent years, but every year he's been in the league there's probably been a half dozen quarterbacks who would be chosen before him.
Testaverde's another one who I don't think should get in even though he's thrown for over 40,000 yards now. He was never really a premier NFL QB.
This is a never ending debate though and I don't even have a vote on who gets in. So I'm going to stop now.
Class of 2007:
Gene Hickerson
Michael Irvin
Bruce Matthews
Charlie Sanders
Thurman Thomas
Roger Wehrli
All deserving, IMHO.
Quote from: QB Eagles on February 05, 2006, 11:24:16 AM
Prediction for next year: Thurman Thomas, Michael Irvin, Bruce Matthews, and whoever the senior committee comes up with.
Only missed on Wehrli. 8)
8-Balls are on me. Word up Irvin.
Crack hos everywhere are rejoicing that one of "theirs" got in.
Monk still deserves to be in. But I'm pointing and laughing at the fact that he isn't.
Quote from: rjs246 on February 03, 2007, 03:18:00 PM
Monk still deserves to be in. But I'm pointing and laughing at the fact that he isn't.
Skins fans will be happy with the HOF selection next year. For Darrell Green, that is.
Irvin is late for his speech. Must have gone out to try to find a dealer.
Funny hearing Thurman Thomas bust Bruce Matthews' balls a little bit over the Comeback.
Richard Dent will also probably find his way into the Hall. Maybe Derrick Thomas too.
Quote from: QB Eagles on February 03, 2007, 02:43:29 PM
Class of 2007:
Gene Hickerson
Michael Irvin
Bruce Matthews
Charlie Sanders
Thurman Thomas
Roger Wehrli
All deserving, IMHO.
Agreed. Hickerson and Wehrli had to wait too long, but I'm glad they finally made it.
Irvin was late for his speech while Thomas lost his.
Holla.
Quote from: QB Eagles on February 05, 2006, 11:24:16 AM
Prediction for next year: Thurman Thomas, Michael Irvin, Bruce Matthews, and whoever the senior committee comes up with.
He's smurt.
monk does not deserve in he was a very good wr who had a couple great years...he was not a great wr tho
He was a consistently top notch player who came up big in big games, played forever at a high level and never let his team down while winning 3(?) superbowls.
Lynn Swan and John Stallworth are in the Hall. Monk should be in the Hall.
Lynn Swan and John Stallworth are in the Hall. Monk should be in the Hall.
i cant argue with that....i will only say that none of them should be in
the HOF recognizes greatness....art monk was not great he just played for a long time...in fact i dont think there was ever a time when he was even the best wr on his own team
if longevity and big game production aren't a big part of your definition of greatness, then there are a whole lotta cats in the hall who shouldn't be, and a whole lot who aren't that ought..
longevity means nothing in regards to the hall....unless you are great for a long time
monk wasnt known as some sort of big game player
he played in three superbowls and in two of them he had a single catch...and hes never had a superbowl touchdown
he really only had two great playoffs games and both came in losses
monk was a very good player not a great one...and very good players dont belong in the hall
Somewhat surprised that Tagliabue didn't make it, but it's a decent list...
The renewal of the annual battle regarding Art Monk's qualifications for the Hall of Fame got me thinking that I've never run across a comparison of HOF receivers. So, being the football geek that I am ;), I put together the following list which includes all HOF wide receivers (including early offensive ends who were used more or less like modern WRs, and excluding tight ends).
The ranks that are included in the career stats are those that they held at the time of their retirement (as best I could determine in some cases, and with a > sign where they can't have been higher than a certain rank, and may have been much lower), not current ranks. As always, I want to be fair to the older players who didn't benefit from the liberalized rules that opened up the passing game after 1978 and inflated pass receiving totals significantly, and who played during shorter seasons.
IGY had brought up post-season statistics, and unfortunately I have no way of gathering those numbers that isn't ridiculously time consuming.
Lance Alworth – 11 seasons (136 G). All-Pro - 7. AFL All-Star - 7. Led league in pass receptions - 3. Led league in receiving yardage - 3. Led league in receiving TDs – 3. Career stats and ranks – 542 rec. (4), 10,266 yds. (2), 18.9 avg., 85 TD (3). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 7. 10+ TDs – 5.
Raymond Berry – 13 seasons (154 G). All-Pro – 6. Pro Bowl – 5. Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 3. Led league in receiving TDs – 2. Career stats and ranks – 631 rec. (1), 9275 yds. (2), 14.7 avg., 68 TD (>3). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 2.
Fred Biletnikoff – 14 seasons (190 G). All-Pro – 6. AFL All-Star/Pro Bowl – 6. Led AFC in pass receptions – 2. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 589 rec. (4), 8974 yds. (5), 15.2 avg., 76 TD (6). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Tom Fears – 9 seasons (87 G). All-Pro – 5. Pro Bowl – 1. Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 400 rec. (2), 5397 yds. (-), 13.5 avg., 38 TD (-). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 2. 10+ TDs – 0.
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch – 9 seasons (103 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 3. Led league in pass receptions – 1. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 343 rec. (>3), 6299 yds. (2), 18.4 avg., 53 TD (3). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Don Hutson – 11 seasons (116 G). All-Pro – 11. Pro Bowl – didn't exist yet. Led league in pass receptions – 8. Led league in receiving yardage – 7. Led league in receiving TDs – 9. Career stats and ranks – 488 rec. (1), 7991 yds. (1), 16.4 avg., 99 TD (1, by far). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 3.
Michael Irvin – 12 seasons (159 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 5. Led NFC in pass receptions – 1. Led NFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led NFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 750 rec. (10), 11,904 yds. (9), 15.9 avg., 65 TD (>13). 50+ receptions – 8. 1000+ yards – 7. 10+ TDs – 1.
Charlie Joiner – 18 seasons (239 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – 3. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 750 rec. (1), 12,146 yds. (1), 16.2 avg., 65 TD (>9). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 4. 10+ TDs – 0.
Steve Largent – 14 seasons (200 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 7. Led AFC in pass receptions – 1. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 2. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 819 rec. (1), 13,089 yds. (1), 16.0 avg., 100 TD (1). 50+ receptions – 10. 1000+ yards – 8. 10+ TDs – 3.
James Lofton – 16 seasons (233 G). All-Pro – 6. Pro Bowl – 8. Led conference in pass receptions – 0. Led conference in receiving yardage – 1. Led conference in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 764 rec. (3), 14,004 yds. (1), 18.3 avg., 75 TD (>6). 50+ receptions – 9. 1000+ yards – 6. 10+ TDs – 0.
Don Maynard – 15 seasons (186 G). All-Pro – 5. AFL All-Star – 4. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 633 rec. (1), 11,834 yds. (1), 18.7 avg., 88 TD (2). 50+ receptions – 5. 1000+ yards – 5. 10+ TDs – 3.
Tommy McDonald – 12 seasons (152 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 6. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 2. Career stats and ranks – 495 rec. (6), 8410 yds. (5), 17.0 avg., 84 TD (2). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 3. 10+ TDs – 4.
Wayne Millner – 7 seasons (76 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – didn't exist yet. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 124 rec. (-), 1578 yds. (-), 12.7 avg., 12 TD (-). 50+ receptions – 0. 1000+ yards – 0. 10+ TDs – 0.
Bobby Mitchell – 11 seasons (148 G – primarily a RB, first 4 seasons). All-Pro – 5. Pro Bowl – 4. Led league in pass receptions – 1. Led league in receiving yardage – 2. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 521 rec. (4), 7954 yds. (>7), 15.3 avg., 65 TD (>4). 50+ receptions – 6. 1000+ yards – 2. 10+ TDs – 2.
Pete Pihos – 9 seasons (107 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 6 (The first 6 Pro Bowls). Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 2. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 373 rec. (3), 5619 yds. (>1), 15.1 avg., 61 TDs (>3). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 3.
John Stallworth – 14 seasons (165 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – 4. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 537 rec. (15), 8723 yds. (12), 16.2 avg., 63 TD (>11). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 3. 10+ TDs – 1.
Lynn Swann – 9 seasons (115 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 2. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 336 rec. (>20), 5462 yds. (>20), 16.3 avg., 51 TD (>15). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 0. 10+ TDs – 2.
Charley Taylor – 13 seasons (165 G – primarily a RB, first 2 seasons). All-Pro – 10. Pro Bowl – 8. Led league in pass receptions – 2. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 649 rec. (1), 9110 yds. (4), 14.0 avg., 79 TD (5). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Paul Warfield – 13 seasons (157 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 8. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 3. Career stats and ranks – 427 rec. (18), 8565 yds. (6), 20.1 avg., 85 TD (4). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 4.
And now I present.....
Art Monk – 16 seasons (224 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 3. Led NFC in pass receptions – 1. Led NFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led NFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 940 rec. (2), 12,721 yds. (4), 13.5 avg., 68 TD (>12). 50+ receptions – 9. 1000+ yards – 5. 10+ TDs – 0.
And for those who might be wondering about this future inductee:
Jerry Rice – 20 seasons (303 G). All-Pro – 12. Pro Bowl – 12. Led conference in pass receiving – 3. Led conference in receiving yardage – 6. Led conference in receiving TDs – 6. Career stats and ranks – 1549 rec. (1), 22,895 yds. (1), 14.8 avg., 197 TD (1). 50+ receptions – 17. 1000+ yards – 14. 10+ TDs – 9.
A few observations -
Charlie Joiner looks to me to be the the HOF WR most comparable to Monk - a guy who put up consistent, if not great numbers, over a long career and retired with significant totals.
Don Hutson was certainly the Jerry Rice of the 1930s and 40s...or rather, Jerry Rice was the modern Don Hutson.
Wayne Millner played during the single platoon era, and I sure hope he was a terrific defensive player, because his pass receiving totals are nothing special even by the standards of the period he played in.
Eagles fans can take justifiable pride in the accomplishments of Tommy McDonald and Pete Pihos. 8)
all hail FS'64
I say we join up with Art Monk and start a huge campaign for him to get in the HOF............................ as an Eagle. And when he gets in we all point and laugh at the taterskin fans.
The slogan is:
6 catches, 114 yards, Eagle 4 life.
my campaign is to start a 'i hope art monk gets AIDS and dies' movement
i want chris t. jones in the hall of fame before monk
Quote from: ice grillin you on February 04, 2007, 02:10:05 AM
my campaign is to start a 'i hope art monk gets AIDS and dies' movement
I'm learning the hard way this year that people no longer die of AIDS. Just ask Magic and Mr. Louganis.
Quote from: ice grillin you on February 03, 2007, 05:02:14 PM
monk does not deserve in he was a very good wr who had a couple great years...he was not a great wr tho
Quote from: rjs246 on February 03, 2007, 05:32:37 PM
He was a consistently top notch player who came up big in big games, played forever at a high level and never let his team down while winning 3(?) superbowls.
Lynn Swan and John Stallworth are in the Hall. Monk should be in the Hall.
igy, I don't know how old you are, but I can't imagine any Eagle fan who saw Monk play and doesn't think he should be in the hall of fame.
At one point in his career, he was the nfl's all time leader in receptions and yards if I'm not mistaken. He made a lot of avg. qb's look great. He was 'ole reliable' to those qb's. The man was money. It was no coincedence that the Skins won three SB's with qb's like Thiesman and Rypien.
He didn't demand the spotlight like a lot of recievers that came after him so he didn't get much press. He was greatly respected by teammates and peers. I always thought the taterskins gave him the shaft when he retired.
Excuse me while I projectile vomit...
Quote'This was worth the wait,' Irvin says
By Ashley Fox
Inquirer Staff Writer
MIAMI - Jerry Jones had to stop and compose himself. Tears were in his eyes. The Dallas Cowboys owner couldn't shake the image of Michael Irvin in an ambulance, leaving Veterans Stadium, his career over.
And the wide receiver was upbeat. Not happy, but OK.
Yesterday, Irvin was happier than he has been in a long, long time. After two brutally disappointing years of being left out of the club, Irvin got the call he has yearned for: He was selected for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2007.
Entering the Hall with Irvin in August will be running back Thurman Thomas, offensive lineman Bruce Matthews, tight end Charlie Sanders, guard Gene Hickerson, and cornerback Roger Wehrli. Former NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue, guard Russ Grimm, and wide receiver Art Monk did not make it past the first cut.
Tagliabue, whose selection was the subject of a long debate, retired last year, and it was argued by some on the selection board that his final stamp on the league has yet to be determined.
The 40-year-old Irvin is all too familiar with Hall of Fame disappointment. The former Cowboys receiver was crushed two years ago when he was not selected the first time he was eligible. Irvin said that he wanted the "validation" that came with being a first-ballot Hall of Famer.
Then, last year, he was devastated that he didn't get in with his longtime playing companion, quarterback Troy Aikman.
But, as Irvin's mother pointed out to him, everything happens for a reason, and Irvin's wait meant that he got the news when the Super Bowl was in his hometown. He went to high school in Fort Lauderdale and played in college at Miami.
It was sweet.
"It really is a great feeling," a giddy Irvin said. "It really is. And it matters. It really does... . This was worth the wait."
Jones was in the audience yesterday, with Aikman and Norv Turner, among others, to offer Irvin support. A member of the NFL's all-decade team of the 1990s, Irvin finished his 12-year career with 750 catches for 11,904 yards and 65 touchdowns.
"Every week, I felt he was special," Jones said yesterday. "He got hit in Philadelphia, got in an ambulance and couldn't move. He's special."
Jones paused to compose himself. "He got in that ambulance, and I remember how optimistic and gracious he was."
Irvin was loathed in Philadelphia. He was loved by his teammates, even though he often was in the news for his legal entanglements. It is part of his package.
He pleaded no contest in 1996 to cocaine possession and was arrested in 2000 on drug possession charges that eventually were dropped.
"I think maybe some of that is why he hasn't gotten in until now," Aikman said.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame induction ceremony will be Aug. 5 in Canton, Ohio.
:puke
Quote from: shorebird on February 04, 2007, 08:45:52 AM
igy, I don't know how old you are, but I can't imagine any Eagle fan who saw Monk play and doesn't think he should be in the hall of fame.
I'm an Eagle fan, I saw Monk play, and I'm the most tireless advocate on this forum
against the enshrinement of Monk. In fact, as near as I can tell, this growing feeling that everyone has about Monk "belonging" in the Hall of Fame "of course" seems to be the effect of sentimental Skin fan propaganda wearing more and more people down as time goes on.
No way does he belong alongside Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, and James Lofton -- all receivers from the same era who were undeniably much greater than Monk. Immediately following his era we have Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, and Randy Moss -- also all greater than Monk.
Here's the most pertinent comparison for Art Monk:
Art Monk – 16 seasons (224 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 3. Led NFC in pass receptions – 1. Led NFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led NFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 940 rec. (2), 12,721 yds. (4), 13.5 avg., 68 TD (>12). 50+ receptions – 9. 1000+ yards – 5. 10+ TDs – 0
Andre Reed – 16 seasons (227 G). All-Pro – ? (don't know where to find the stat - '64 help me out). Pro Bowl – 7. Led AFC in pass receptions – 1. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 951 rec. (3 - was #2 before his garbage last season on the Skins), 13,198 yds. (4), 13.9 avg., 87 TD (6). 50+ receptions – 13. 1000+ yards – 4. 10+ TDs – 1
Oh yeah and Reed did that with a HOF RB sucking up touches for 12 years and another HOF WR alongside him for 4. He was also the key performer in the greatest comeback in NFL history and ranks very close to the top in receptions and yards in the Super Bowl (and not behind Monk, who was only a factor in one of the four Super Bowls his team went to). Kelly and Reed had the NFL record for completions by a tandem until broken recently by Manning and Harrison.
Monk was a possession receiver who rarely led
his own team in receiving stats in any given year. He was a very good player who is a nice guy. He isn't a Hall of Famer.
Prediction for next year:
Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Paul Tagliabue, Derrick Thomas, + seniors.
Tags might have to wait until the last labor agreement clears the Nov. '08 out clause without being torn back open. If so, that could open the door for former Eagles Art Monk or Richard Dent, though I personally think Andre Reed and Russ Grimm are more deserving.
By the way, doesn't it seem much clearer now that Randall and Eric Allen have an extremely uphill climb to get into the HOF? Sad but true. This year and next year provide a brief window of relatively crappy first-year classes. In 2009 things get very tough again for non-first year guys, like last year.
Neither Allen nor Randall belong in the Hall of Fame. The Hall is supposed to house only the very best who played at their position and although Cunningham did have an MVP season, there were about 1/2 dozen quarterbacks playing during his era that were head and shoulders better than him.
Montana, Marino, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Warren Moon & Steve Young are Hall of Famers. Randall isn't.
Allen was one of the best cornerbacks playing in the league at the time but his credentials don't warrant a Hall admission.
I don't think Carter gets in on the first ballot. Just a hunch. I have nothing to back that up. Unlike Monk getting into the Hall, which should be a no-brainer.
Jerry Rice holds every receiving record. With the notable exception of yards, Carter is basically second in everything.
By those criteria alone Monk should qualify.
Quote from: QB Eagles on February 04, 2007, 10:49:39 AM
Andre Reed – 16 seasons (227 G). All-Pro – ? (don't know where to find the stat - '64 help me out). Pro Bowl – 7. Led AFC in pass receptions – 1. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 951 rec. (3 - was #2 before his garbage last season on the Skins), 13,198 yds. (4), 13.9 avg., 87 TD (6). 50+ receptions – 13. 1000+ yards – 4. 10+ TDs – 1
QB Eagles, my source for All-Pro selections is the ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia, which was published just prior to this season. Reed was selected to a recognized All-Pro team 4 times during his career.
The names Cris Carter and Tim Brown have, appropriately enough, been mentioned. I've already put together the same information for them (just a reminder, as with the list above, the ranks are at the time of their retirement, not necessarily current):
Tim Brown – 17 seasons (255 G). All-Pro – 7. Pro Bowl – 9. Led conference in pass receiving – 1. Led conference in receiving yardage – 4. Led conference in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 1094 rec. (3), 14,934 yds. (2), 13.7 avg., 100 TD (3). 50+ receptions – 11. 1000+ yards – 9. 10+ TDs – 2.
Cris Carter – 16 seasons (234 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 8. Led conference in pass receiving – 1. Led conference in receiving yardage – 0. Led conference in receiving TDs – 3. Career stats and ranks – 1101 rec. (2), 13,899 yds. (4), 12.6 avg., 130 TD (2). 50+ receptions – 11. 1000+ yards – 8. 10+ TDs – 6.
Quote from: Fan_Since_64 on February 04, 2007, 01:26:50 PM
Cris Carter – 16 seasons (234 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 8. Led conference in pass receiving – 1. Led conference in receiving yardage – 0. Led conference in receiving TDs – 3.
All he does is catch TDs. ;)
You guys have convinced me that Monk doesn't belong in the hall.
whoop there it is
the only argument for monk to be in the hall is that there are undeserving people already in...to me thats not an argument
The other argument would be that he is standing outside with an admission ticket.
F
It all depends on where you draw the line. Who are the receivers that have made the Hall of Fame that shouldn't have? My re-arranging of the list:
Clearly deserving (just a matter of degree as to how deserving)
Lance Alworth – 11 seasons (136 G). All-Pro - 7. AFL All-Star - 7. Led league in pass receptions - 3. Led league in receiving yardage - 3. Led league in receiving TDs – 3. Career stats and ranks – 542 rec. (4), 10,266 yds. (2), 18.9 avg., 85 TD (3). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 7. 10+ TDs – 5.
Raymond Berry – 13 seasons (154 G). All-Pro – 6. Pro Bowl – 5. Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 3. Led league in receiving TDs – 2. Career stats and ranks – 631 rec. (1), 9275 yds. (2), 14.7 avg., 68 TD (>3). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 2.
Fred Biletnikoff – 14 seasons (190 G). All-Pro – 6. AFL All-Star/Pro Bowl – 6. Led AFC in pass receptions – 2. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 589 rec. (4), 8974 yds. (5), 15.2 avg., 76 TD (6). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Tom Fears – 9 seasons (87 G). All-Pro – 5. Pro Bowl – 1. Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 400 rec. (2), 5397 yds. (-), 13.5 avg., 38 TD (-). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 2. 10+ TDs – 0.
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch – 9 seasons (103 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 3. Led league in pass receptions – 1. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 343 rec. (>3), 6299 yds. (2), 18.4 avg., 53 TD (3). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Don Hutson – 11 seasons (116 G). All-Pro – 11. Pro Bowl – didn't exist yet. Led league in pass receptions – 8. Led league in receiving yardage – 7. Led league in receiving TDs – 9. Career stats and ranks – 488 rec. (1), 7991 yds. (1), 16.4 avg., 99 TD (1, by far). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 3.
Michael Irvin – 12 seasons (159 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 5. Led NFC in pass receptions – 1. Led NFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led NFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 750 rec. (10), 11,904 yds. (9), 15.9 avg., 65 TD (>13). 50+ receptions – 8. 1000+ yards – 7. 10+ TDs – 1.
Steve Largent – 14 seasons (200 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 7. Led AFC in pass receptions – 1. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 2. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 819 rec. (1), 13,089 yds. (1), 16.0 avg., 100 TD (1). 50+ receptions – 10. 1000+ yards – 8. 10+ TDs – 3.
James Lofton – 16 seasons (233 G). All-Pro – 6. Pro Bowl – 8. Led conference in pass receptions – 0. Led conference in receiving yardage – 1. Led conference in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 764 rec. (3), 14,004 yds. (1), 18.3 avg., 75 TD (>6). 50+ receptions – 9. 1000+ yards – 6. 10+ TDs – 0.
Don Maynard – 15 seasons (186 G). All-Pro – 5. AFL All-Star – 4. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 633 rec. (1), 11,834 yds. (1), 18.7 avg., 88 TD (2). 50+ receptions – 5. 1000+ yards – 5. 10+ TDs – 3
Tommy McDonald – 12 seasons (152 G). All-Pro – 4. Pro Bowl – 6. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 1. Led league in receiving TDs – 2. Career stats and ranks – 495 rec. (6), 8410 yds. (5), 17.0 avg., 84 TD (2). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 3. 10+ TDs – 4.
Bobby Mitchell – 11 seasons (148 G – primarily a RB, first 4 seasons). All-Pro – 5. Pro Bowl – 4. Led league in pass receptions – 1. Led league in receiving yardage – 2. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 521 rec. (4), 7954 yds. (>7), 15.3 avg., 65 TD (>4). 50+ receptions – 6. 1000+ yards – 2. 10+ TDs – 2.
Pete Pihos – 9 seasons (107 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 6 (The first 6 Pro Bowls). Led league in pass receptions – 3. Led league in receiving yardage – 2. Led league in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 373 rec. (3), 5619 yds. (>1), 15.1 avg., 61 TDs (>3). 50+ receptions – 3. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 3.
Charley Taylor – 13 seasons (165 G – primarily a RB, first 2 seasons). All-Pro – 10. Pro Bowl – 8. Led league in pass receptions – 2. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 649 rec. (1), 9110 yds. (4), 14.0 avg., 79 TD (5). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 1.
Paul Warfield – 13 seasons (157 G). All-Pro – 8. Pro Bowl – 8. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 3. Career stats and ranks – 427 rec. (18), 8565 yds. (6), 20.1 avg., 85 TD (4). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 1. 10+ TDs – 4.
Borderline
Charlie Joiner – 18 seasons (239 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – 3. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 750 rec. (1), 12,146 yds. (1), 16.2 avg., 65 TD (>9). 50+ receptions – 7. 1000+ yards – 4. 10+ TDs – 0.
Wayne Millner – 7 seasons (76 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – didn't exist yet. Led league in pass receptions – 0. Led league in receiving yardage – 0. Led league in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 124 rec. (-), 1578 yds. (-), 12.7 avg., 12 TD (-). 50+ receptions – 0. 1000+ yards – 0. 10+ TDs – 0.
John Stallworth – 14 seasons (165 G). All-Pro – 2. Pro Bowl – 4. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 1. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 0. Career stats and ranks – 537 rec. (15), 8723 yds. (12), 16.2 avg., 63 TD (>11). 50+ receptions – 4. 1000+ yards – 3. 10+ TDs – 1.
Lynn Swann – 9 seasons (115 G). All-Pro – 3. Pro Bowl – 2. Led AFC in pass receptions – 0. Led AFC in receiving yardage – 0. Led AFC in receiving TDs – 1. Career stats and ranks – 336 rec. (>20), 5462 yds. (>20), 16.3 avg., 51 TD (>15). 50+ receptions – 2. 1000+ yards – 0. 10+ TDs – 2.
64, good to see ya back around, man.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on February 05, 2007, 01:28:22 PM
64, good to see ya back around, man.
Hey thanks, nothing like a little Hall of Fame discussion to get the juices flowing. ;)
Quote from: rjs246 on February 04, 2007, 12:13:39 PM
I don't think Carter gets in on the first ballot. Just a hunch. I have nothing to back that up. Unlike Monk getting into the Hall, which should be a no-brainer.
you sir are crazy.
I agree with that assessment of players, '64. And, IMHO, the fewer "borderline" characters in the Hall, the better.
new HOF'r Michael Irvin canned by ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2769871)
Wanna start a pool on why?
Quote from: FFatPatt on February 18, 2007, 12:13:44 AM
new HOF'r Michael Irvin canned by ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2769871)
Wanna start a pool on why?
You mean besides being a crack addicted, babbling loudmouth?
Combine his lack of talent and fact that hes about two seconds away from embarassing himself again, and this was a decent move. But they now need to hire a true black guy to even somethings out. Uncle Tom Jackson don't cut it.
Wow - I might start watching ESPN NFL shows again.
"Are you retarded?" Tom Jackson, to Michael Irvin