was drafted by the Browns? This is a question I've always thought about and I thought about again when discussiong how Vince Young will do in the pros.
What if the Browns took McNabb and the Eagles were forced to take Smith, Culpepper, McNown, or Couch? Obviously, the best bet would've been Culpepper, looking back. But it leads to a fundamental question of talent vs coaching. Would McNabb have become the player he is today with Cleveland? Would Andy Reid's system of coaching and offense have made Couch or Smith an all-pro like McNabb? Was any QB that went to Cleveland and Philadelphia in the '99 draft destined to have the careers they have had with those organizations or would the Cleveland Browns have been a perennial playoff team, with the Eagles looking for their 3rd quarter back since that draft?
I can't see Tim Couch being a productive QB in this league; regardless of who is coaching him. He was never even great at Kentucky. I never understood why Cleveland selected him in the first place - his mechanics may have been there, but Donovan had a much better collegiate career than Couch did. I thank the Browns for their stupidity - unfortunately, a lot of Eagle fans don't.
I think the coaching and the system has really helped Donovan, but he has managed to do well despite the lack of a really good receiving core over his career. TO at least showed us what he can do with a real receiver out there. Hopefully someone was watching...
It is my opinion, as I have thought about this plenty of times before, that any QB entering that environment in Cleveland with Chris Palmer leading them was destined to fail.
Couch didn't have the balls to play QB in the NFL. Much like Ricky Williams, he had trouble dealing with criticism and the media.
I think Donovan would've still been the best of the '99 class but not as good as he is today. One of the reasons he is the QB he is today is because Reid protected him up front. He didn't let Donovan take shots like Couch took behind that OL or like Carr is taking in Houston.
So I think Couch and Smith are where they should be - out of the league. And Culpepper benefitted from his support system too. Cade McNown was and still is a punk who thought he didnt have to work now that he'd made it (see Leaf, Ryan).
If the Eagles had ended up with their #2 choice in that draft, Culpepper, I think they'd be pretty much where they are today given that Reid would've been able to mold him as he has done to Donovan.
System and organization definitely helps or hinders player development, but McNabb's eerie sixth sense and crazy peripheral vision in the pocket would be his no matter what. Yes naysayers will point out his mistakes, but he has made us all drop our jaws and shake our heads with his own instinctive plays tons of times. I always loved Randall, and he is twice the QB #12 was. Culpepper on the other hand don't look so hot since Moss left, there is no comparison. How many playoff wins does he have? Couch,Smith,McNown garbage or back-ups in any org.
Culpepper has 2 playoff wins (vs New Orleans, at Green Bay)
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 09, 2006, 11:37:18 AM
If the Eagles had ended up with their #2 choice in that draft, Culpepper, I think they'd be pretty much where they are today given that Reid would've been able to mold him as he has done to Donovan.
I agreed with basically everything you said except this. I'm not so sure if the Eagles would have enjoyed the same success they have over the years with Culpepper running the offense. And it's got nothing to do with athletic ability, accuracy or toughness. It's about smarts. I'm not saying Culpepper is dumb but I don't think he has the mental capacity to grasp the WCO as quickly as DMac did.
Quote from: BigEd76 on January 09, 2006, 12:27:44 PM
Culpepper has 2 playoff wins (vs New Orleans, at Green Bay)
And the NEXT GREAT ONE just had his ass handed it to him yesterday.
McNabb would have still ended up being the best of the lot because he had the best combination of skills and smarts. While he often amazingly frustrating with the way he plays, I can't imagine there's a smarter player in the league who also has the physical tools that he has (I'd put Tiki, :=), and a few others in this class). There's no way that cream wouldn't have risen to the top with McNabb. The Eagles obviously deserve all of the props for drafting him.
Quote from: Sgt PSN on January 09, 2006, 12:54:46 PM
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 09, 2006, 11:37:18 AM
If the Eagles had ended up with their #2 choice in that draft, Culpepper, I think they'd be pretty much where they are today given that Reid would've been able to mold him as he has done to Donovan.
I agreed with basically everything you said except this. I'm not so sure if the Eagles would have enjoyed the same success they have over the years with Culpepper running the offense. And it's got nothing to do with athletic ability, accuracy or toughness. It's about smarts. I'm not saying Culpepper is dumb but I don't think he has the mental capacity to grasp the WCO as quickly as DMac did.
Yeah, that's why I said "pretty much" because I think Culpepper's raw talent could've helped him win games while learning the offense. He's dumb, but he's not Vick-like dumb.
(http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=the+watcher+marvel/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=12p7afg1d/EXP=1136920390/*-http%3A//www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/bowen_bust_watcher.jpg)
OK, I'm just confused by that.
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 02:13:30 PM
(http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=the+watcher+marvel/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=12p7afg1d/EXP=1136920390/*-http%3A//www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/bowen_bust_watcher.jpg)
i can't see it.
Yep, still confused.
Geez, didn't you goofy bastiches read comics when you were kids?
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 02:22:52 PM
Geez, didn't you goofy bastiches read comics when you were kids?
I read one comic book when I was about 10. It was The Dark Knight Returns (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1563893428/104-2187342-2632722?v=glance&n=283155) and it was so unbelievably awesome that it ruined every other comic book I ever tried to read. They all sucked dong in comparison.
Never was a big comics fan - other than the Sunday funnies page.
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 09, 2006, 02:52:09 PM
Never was a big comics fan - other than the Sunday funnies page.
do they call them that to be ironic, sorta like the way you call a huge guy tiny?
Quote from: Sun_Mo on January 09, 2006, 02:56:29 PM
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 09, 2006, 02:52:09 PM
Never was a big comics fan - other than the Sunday funnies page.
do they call them that to be ironic, sorta like the way you call a huge guy tiny?
On a real bad day, that made me chuckle some.
Archie? Richie Rich? Sad Sack?
Quote from: PhillyPhreak54 on January 09, 2006, 11:37:18 AM
If the Eagles had ended up with their #2 choice in that draft, Culpepper, I think they'd be pretty much where they are today given that Reid would've been able to mold him as he has done to Donovan.
I still think that Culpepper has to prove he can play without Moss, this year - his first season without he was absolutely abysmal. Donnie Mac has demonstrated he can make it work with marginal talent at WR, and we've seen what he can do with a solid WR. He was unbelievable. I get the feeling, and we'll probably find for sure next season, that Culpepper was the product of Moss's greatness, not the other way around. Granted Culpepper has talent, size and speed, but I don't think he is on the same level as McNabb in terms of intelligence, range, or talent.
This is also why I have a lot of confidence and excitement regarding Reggie Brown, with a healthy McNabb, Reggie could really, seriously break-out, especially with a decent second receiving threat from FA market.
Culpepper just has to learn to play without the Moss security blanket. He's never had to become a great QB b/c on any given play he could just chuck the ball in the air and know that Moss would grab it. He's got to learn, and if he can he'll be fine b/c he's got a ton of talent. I guess we'll find out how he is as a student next season.
Culpepper is talented, but he doesn't strike me as being quite as smart as McNabb. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes Culp to pick up Childress's WCO.
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 02:13:30 PM
(http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=the+watcher+marvel/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=12p7afg1d/EXP=1136920390/*-http%3A//www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/bowen_bust_watcher.jpg)
Isn't that Ron Howard's brother?
I think it would be rather hysterical if Childress implemented a run-heavy offense with some success. Hysterically infuriating.
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 02:22:52 PM
Geez, didn't you goofy bastiches read comics when you were kids?
yup. read em when i was a kid for sure. :paranoid not now though, of course.
(http://www.batman-superman.com/batman/img/batgirl1.gif)(http://www.batman-superman.com/superman/img/supergirl.gif)
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 04:05:05 PM
Culpepper is talented, but he doesn't strike me as being quite as smart as McNabb. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes Culp to pick up Childress's WCO.
I don't know if Culpepper will have a very difficult time picking up Childress's WCO. I think he probably runs a simple, dumbed down version of it that could be taught at the preschool level. I seriously doubt that it is anywhere as intricate as what Reid runs.
If there's one thing that can be said about Reid is that he's got an extremely deep and complicated playbook (Except for running plays. I think Andy stole his running plays from Techmo Bowl). Now if he could just figure out the best situations to use said plays..... :-\
Quote from: Zanshin on January 09, 2006, 02:13:30 PM
(http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=the+watcher+marvel/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=12p7afg1d/EXP=1136920390/*-http%3A//www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/bowen_bust_watcher.jpg)
Only The Watcher knows.
That picture looks like Mini Me on juice.
It's Barry Bonds, man.
If McNabb's a hyperintelligent superhero, I guess his kryptonite is a dwindling game clock.