I read this, and thought you all might appreciate it.
QuoteLinebacker has been an odd position for the Eagles. During the Reid era we have had a revolving door at each of the LB positions. It has been a problematic position for us. Think of all the starters we've had:
SLB -- Darling, Emmons, Jones
MLB -- Trotter, Gardner, Kirkland, Simoneau, Trotter
WLB -- Willie T., Gardner, Caldwell, Barber, Wayne, Simoneau, Adams
Did I leave anyone out?
What do we make of this?
That is hard to say. We've found the right players at OL and DB. We've found RBs. We found LJ at TE. LB has been a struggle.
We have drafted guys. We've signed FAs. We've tried just about everything. Nothing has worked to this point.
There have been good seasons by individuals, but there's been no consistency. 2001 was far and away the best group. Trot worked the middle. Emmons controlled TEs. Caldwell was effective in coverage and handled the weakside.
Jim Johnson loved Carlos Emmons at SAM. Unfortunately, Carlos got hurt as his contract expired. The Eagles considered keeping him, but didn't think it would be smart to give him a big deal. They let him go to NY and he's been pretty solid, but has missed 5 games over 2 years. Statistically, he and Dhani have been similar, but CE was better in coverage and gave us a different skill set.
Trot is the MLB that JJ has liked the best. He's just a unique talent. Who knows what might have happened had he not been gone in '02 and '03...
Our best WLB was Shawn Barber. We tried to sign him to an extension and then tried to get him to re-sign before he hit the market. No go. Shawn wanted a huge deal. Our holdup was a concern about his knee. He got that deal and had a terrific year for KC in 2003, but has only played in 10 games over the last 2 years due to a knee injury.
Nate Wayne had the potential to be a star at WLB. Unfortunately, he was just as inconsistent for us as he was for GB. Simoneau has shown flashes, but didn't pan out the way we expected.
We've re-invented our group once again. We have Dhani Jones, who I think is best suited for MLB. We have Trot, who is a MLB. We have Keith Adams, who played MLB in college. Our 4th LB is Mark Simoneau, who was also a MLB in college. None of these guys is particularly athletic. We have a bunch of guys who are best suited to stopping the run.
At first, that notion seems nuts, but think about our run D this year. We have played 11 games with Trotter in the middle (he was thrown out of the ATL game before it even started). We've given up 102 yds per game with Trot starting. That would be 11th in the league. We've given up 3.54 yds per rush. That would be 5th in the NFL. We faced 3 terrific runners in LaDainian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Lamont Jordan. We allowed them 52 carries for 75 yards. Think about that stat. 52 carries for 75 yards. Amazing.
Unfortunately, none of the 3 is adept at coverage. None is a great athlete. None of the guys is a sideline-to-sideline guy.
You'll hear fans gripe about how the Eagles don't value LB. That's not exactly true. Jim Johnson puts a premium on rushing the passer and pass coverage, the DL and DBs. Those are his priorities. However, it isn't as if Jim thinks LBs aren't important. We've tried to upgrade the unit, but nothing has really worked. That is the problem.
There is hope. We hired a new set of scouts and a new College Scouting Director prior to 2004. Last year we added WLB Matt McCoy in the 2nd Round. Based on what I saw of him in college, he is a good fit for us. Matt's only been on the field for a couple of games this year, so we haven't gotten to see if he can play or not. I'm hopeful. We signed SLB Greg Richmond in 2004. He's been banged up and that has hindered him. JJ seems to really like him. Those guys could help in 2006.
We know Keith Adams is gone from WIL. He's a FA and won't be the starter next year. McCoy has the inside track, but isn't a lock. Trot will be the MLB. Dhani is likely to be back at SAM, but the team may look around and see if there is a better player available. Jones hasn't been bad, but certainly hasn't developed into the played they'd hoped for.
2006 will mean another new starter at LB. That's been a regular event since Reid got here. We haven't had the same 3 guys in back to back years. Let's just hope this time they get it right.
easy solution
5-0-6 defense
Quote from: Wingspan on December 12, 2005, 02:10:07 PM
easy solution
5-0-6 defense
:cfhead :cfhead :cfhead :cfhead
If only we had Freeney. Then it could be Freeney, Rayburn, Hollis, Patterson, Freak.
Here is a list of the guys who were taken before Dwight Freeney in 2002:
2002 FIRST-ROUND SIGNINGS
No. Player, Position Team Contract Length
1. David Carr, QB Houston 7 years
2. Julius Peppers, DE Carolina 7 years
3. Joey Harrington, QB Detroit Undisclosed
4. Mike Williams, OT Buffalo Undisclosed
5. Quentin Jammer, CB San Diego 6 years
6. Ryan Sims, DT Kansas City 7 years
7. Bryant McKinnie, OT Minnesota 5 years
8. Roy Williams, SS Dallas 7 years
9. John Henderson, DT Jacksonville 5 years
10. Levi Jones, OT Cincinnati 5 years
Wow. ???
Henderson & Peppers are the only guys I would even consider taking before Freeney upon further review.
Simoneau has shown flashes?
Joey Harrington will probably wind up in Philly as the 3rd string QB thanks to Marty Morningwhood.
Peppers is the only one i'd even consider.
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 03:20:12 PM
Simoneau has shown flashes?
Flashes of maximum suckitude. Totally. As if.
Quote from: The Waco Kid on December 12, 2005, 03:23:26 PM
Peppers is the only one i'd even consider.
Apparently you've never seen John Henderson play. He's a fricken beast at DT.
Quote from: Mad-Lad on December 12, 2005, 03:21:17 PM
Joey Harrington will probably wind up in Philly as the 3rd string QB thanks to Marty Morningwhood.
Joey Harrington is good... for a 3rd QB.
I'm still not ready to discount David Carr. Talk about having a rough deal.
The guys on the ESPN crew did a twenty minute dialog about how Joey Harrington just needs a change of scenery, and that he has all the tools to be one of the greats. After that, and just before halftime, they downed a few hits of acid and started pulling each other's dorks under their blankies cause it was so cold in the Land of Brett.
Peppers and Henderson gotta in the list too, although Freeney IMO is slightly ahead of Henderson, and way behind the talent and ability of Peppers
A few points -
He's right about the idea the Eagles don't value Linebackers being bogus. They've signed a bunch of free agents (Emmons, Jones, Wayne, Kirkland, Barber), made a trade (Simoneau), and used three second round picks on linebackers (Caver, Gardner, and McCoy) under Andy Reid. Unfortunately Caver and Gardner didn't work out - that's more a matter of poor drafting, rather than devauling the position. Since those picks haven't worked out, they've been stuck in a cycle of short term solutions, because they have still needed to draft other positions as well - more critical positions like OL, DE, and CB. This is actually the best example of the chink in the Eagles' philosophy's armor - poor drafting. If the Eagles had drafted better - and awhile back on this board I compared their drafts of recent years to the Steelers, Pats, and Colts and it showed how relatively poor the Eagles were - their philosophy would work brilliantly. Unfortunately though, they have not had the success at the draft that this philosophy requires and the problems at WR, LB, and DL are the result.
It's way too early to call Matt McCoy a bust, but it's also too early to make him the front runner for a starting spot - he hasn't shown anything yet to make anyone think he will be a starter next year.
The idea that things may have been different in 2002 and 2003 if Trotter were here is a tough thing to argue. There's no question he was the more talented and better player than Gardner/Kirkland/Simoneau repacements, but he was not the player then that he has been the last season and a half. He himself admits that his little detour through Washington and initial assignment on special teams upon his return here had a profound impact on him. It humbled him and he has become a better all around player because of it. Sure the system here may be more suited for his style of play, but his problems in Washington were more than just about the system. If he signed a big deal here, he may very well still have let the money go to his head and very well could have had the same injury problems. You can't just ignore the circumstances during the period he was gone and just assume he would have played then as he is playing right now.
Just say fargit and get Peterson. A more atheletic CE. I don't care if he goes on IR from day one, at least I can have him in Madden.
Our WR group sucks, we're fine there - then out of nowhere TO.
Our DE group sucks, we're fine there - then out of nowhere Kearse.
Our OLB group sucks, we're fine there - then out of nowhere...Simoneau? PETERSON! Do it. Do it.
Quote from: pinoyboy2pt0 on December 12, 2005, 03:42:25 PM
Just say fargit and get Peterson. A more atheletic CE. I don't care if he goes on IR from day one, at least I can have him in Madden.
Our DE group sucks, we're fine there - then out of nowhere Kearse.
Our OLB group sucks, we're fine there - then out of nowhere...Simoneau? PETERSON! Do it. Do it.
I don't know about that, he turned down a six-year, $37.8 million deal with a $15.5 million signing bonus from the Niners. While I can understand the Eagles value the LB position more than we give them credit for, I don't think they'd invest that much in him.
Quote from: Beermonkey on December 12, 2005, 03:51:08 PM
I don't know about that, he turned down a six-year, $37.8 million deal with a $15.5 million signing bonus from the Niners. While I can understand the Eagles value the LB position than we giev them credit for, I don't think they'd invest that much in him.
Perhaps that was enough of a reason to turn it down.
that's a lot of words to remind us of the sucky LB's in recent years and the sucky LB's of now.
Quote from: PhillyPhaninDC on December 12, 2005, 03:25:26 PM
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 03:20:12 PM
Simoneau has shown flashes?
Flashes of maximum suckitude. Totally. As if.
He actually won Defensive player of the Month the in October of 2003. Just sayin...
Making him a FLASH (in the pan).
Peterson is represented by the Postons. The Postons = 2 Drews.....plus they hate Whitey...
Quote from: BigEd76 on December 12, 2005, 04:18:49 PM
Peterson is represented by the Postons. The Postons = 2 Drews...
I thought he dumped them.
Just say no to ANY Postons client!!
I would love to go after Will Witherspoon. He's a little on the small side, but he's definitely a sideline to sideline guy. Plus, he's better than Peterson, and only 25 years old.
Peterson is actually the kind of LB JJ needs.
One of the biggest holes in our defense is the fact that we can't cover these good receiving TEs. Either JJ has to adjust his defenses around these weapons, thereby weakening other areas, or he just covers them one-on-one, just like he did to Shockey did yesterday. This ultimately hampers what JJ can do with his coverages, blitz packages, etc.
Peterson is the one LB who can cover every TE--from Shockey to Witten to Crumpler.
you guys dont think after this years fiasco its going to dwindle our hopes of signing any big name free agents?
Quote from: FFatPatt on December 12, 2005, 02:06:59 PMWe faced 3 terrific runners in LaDainian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Lamont Jordan.
That should read, the Eagles faced two terrific runners in Ladainian Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander, and another guy who I threw in to make my argument sound good.
Quote from: L-ong-B-each-I-ggle on December 12, 2005, 06:05:02 PM
you guys dont think after this years fiasco its going to dwindle our hopes of signing any big name free agents?
Most players aren't as dumb as I'm finding a lot of Eagles fans seem to be.
Fiasco?
Most players recognize that when a team loses their Pro-Bowl QB, their starting 2 WRs, half an oline and numerous other players to the PUP and IR...they aren't expected to get back to the same place they were the year when they HAD all of those players.
Quote from: L-ong-B-each-I-ggle on December 12, 2005, 06:05:02 PM
you guys dont think after this years fiasco its going to dwindle our hopes of signing any big name free agents?
The team went to the superbowl last year and only signed one free agent so who knows what the hell is going to happen this offseason. I don't think them having one losing season after years of success when they lost 7 offensive starters and 6 pro-bowlers to injury is going to hurt them when it comes to courting FAs.
I blame the Eagles LB problems on Korver.
Quote from: Mad-Lad on December 12, 2005, 06:15:47 PM
I blame the Eagles LB problems on Korver.
Not AI? You know the Eagles can't win a Championship with AI on the Sixers.
I blame you. That stupid nickname for Sheldon Brown has cursed this team. I hope you're happy now.
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 06:18:31 PM
I blame you. That stupid nickname for Sheldon Brown has cursed this team. I hope you're happy now.
I had the nickname last year, buddy.
:P
Plus, if it was Lito's nickname, I'd understand your anger. Brown's play was far from suck this year.
Quote from: PhillyGirl on December 12, 2005, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 06:18:31 PM
I blame you. That stupid nickname for Sheldon Brown has cursed this team. I hope you're happy now.
I had the nickname last year, buddy.
:P
Plus, if it was Lito's nickname, I'd understand your anger. Brown's play was far from suck this year.
Scrappy FARGIN DUMPED Schockey when he came over the middle yesterday :D :D :D
It's an awful nickname, and the rest of the defense is ashamed that you came up with it.
Quote from: Diomedes on December 12, 2005, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: FFatPatt on December 12, 2005, 02:06:59 PMWe faced 3 terrific runners in LaDainian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Lamont Jordan.
That should read, the Eagles faced two terrific runners in Ladainian Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander, and another guy who I threw in to make my argument sound good.
That should read, "We faced 3 terrific runners in LaDainian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Tiki Barber."
Tiki has more yards than both LT and Shaun, on fewer touches.
Why harp on the negatives? So what if they have to face Tiki twice a year, every year, for a hundred years? The point is they stopped two guys they won't have to see again for three years.
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 03:20:12 PM
Simoneau has shown flashes?
Hot flashes. She's in the "change of life."
Witherspoon is who i would target if had to narrow it down a long with Tripplett, and add Mario in the draft - the next Julius Peppers
thats for defense lots they can do for offense too
Should be a interesting offseason - we will see if the so called Gold Standard has any balls either shteins or gets off the pot with regards to making a Super Bowl drive
Quote from: Wingspan on December 12, 2005, 02:10:07 PM
easy solution
5-0-6 defense
That has to be the funniest thing I've seen all year! Good one Wingspan. :yay
Quote from: General_Failure on December 12, 2005, 06:54:05 PM
It's an awful nickname, and the rest of the defense is ashamed that you came up with it.
Those are the truest words that have ever been typed and posted on this board.
Quote from: QB Eagles on December 12, 2005, 07:04:31 PMThat should read, "We faced 3 terrific runners in LaDainian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Tiki Barber."
Tiki has more yards than both LT and Shaun, on fewer touches.
Excellent point.
"wah wah wah!
I don't like the nickname!"
Good.
Quote from: PhillyGirl on December 12, 2005, 06:14:03 PM
Quote from: L-ong-B-each-I-ggle on December 12, 2005, 06:05:02 PM
you guys dont think after this years fiasco its going to dwindle our hopes of signing any big name free agents?
Most players aren't as dumb as I'm finding a lot of Eagles fans seem to be.
Fiasco?
Most players recognize that when a team loses their Pro-Bowl QB, their starting 2 WRs, half an oline and numerous other players to the PUP and IR...they aren't expected to get back to the same place they were the year when they HAD all of those players.
also when it comes to the players...as long as the contract has enough money tied to it, they dont care who they play for.
Thats a given. ;)
Although there are exceptions to both what I said and you said. There are players who are morons and there are also players that will NOT want to play for a losing team with no future (see Niners).
i think people over analyze the eagles problems at linebacker...they dont need a guy who can cover te's or go sideline to sideline...or stop the run or rush the passer...what they need are playmakers...
want some mind numbing numbers...
trotter...dhani...adams and simoneau have a TOTAL of 1 sack, 3 int, 3 ff, 0 fumble recovery this year
disgraceful to say the least
i dont care who they get but they better be a mean sob who is going to go out and make things happen
Quote from: PhillyGirl on December 13, 2005, 11:59:26 AM
Thats a given. ;)
Although there are exceptions to both what I said and you said. There are players who are morons and there are also players that will NOT want to play for a losing team with no future (see Niners).
You could have said the same thning about us about 7 years ago.
almost without exception players will go where the money is...period
this isnt college recruiting
I'd like to see this guy here next year....
(http://www.gopsusports.com/images/home/poz.JPG)
He is right in line with the size and speed JJ likes, 6'2 and 230lbs, will probably put on some weight too.
Quote from: ice grillin you on December 13, 2005, 12:05:49 PM
i think people over analyze the eagles problems at linebacker...they dont need a guy who can cover te's or go sideline to sideline...or stop the run or rush the passer...what they need are playmakers...
want some mind numbing numbers...
trotter...dhani...adams and simoneau have a TOTAL of 1 sack, 3 int, 3 ff, 0 fumble recovery this year
wow, that sounds familiar IGY.
Quote from: MURP on November 21, 2005, 12:01:15 PM
One thing that really stands out to me is the total lack of playmaking ability of Dhani Jones and Keith Adams. I mean, these guys have been non existent for 99% of the season. The stats are mind boggling really. Dhani and Ketih COMBINED have 1 Int, 3 passes defended, 0 Sacks, 0 Forced fumbles, 0 fumble recoveries.
i started that wagon three years ago dook...when they signed nate wayne...welcome aboard tho
next time you want to copy/paste my thoughts and make them your own, wait longer than a month. :yay
4.5
2.5
Posluzny (I'm sure I butchered the spelling) is a friggin beast. I like AJ Hawk better though.
Was a point just scored?
Quote from: PhillyPhaninDC on December 13, 2005, 12:32:07 PM
I'd like to see this guy here next year....
(http://www.gopsusports.com/images/home/poz.JPG)
He is right in line with the size and speed JJ likes, 6'2 and 230lbs, will probably put on some weight too.
Poz is going back to PSU :yay ;D
Quote from: DonovanTheMessiah on December 13, 2005, 01:18:16 PM
Poz is going back to PSU :yay ;D
I thought he was a senior ??? Meh, maybe he could just swing by the practice field then and give Dhani and Keith some farging pointers then.
i just figured players who dont have as much time to follow the eagles as we do might see a rebuilding phase.
also by fiasco i meant the corey simon and TO fiasco as well as a horrible season. maybe other players see this and might not want to deal with that crap. yah the FO was right in most of their decisions, but thats from our stand point as fans.
this team wasn't exactly lock stock and two smoking barrels even when we weren't missing half of the offense. it seems as though the nfc got better while we got worst. yes players are obviously going to go after the most money but its not like the eagles have a track record of overpaying or getting into bidding wars for players.
all im sayin is it doesn't appear as though were rebuilding to us.. we have a couple holes to fill.. but to FA's and agents this past season may discourage them from looking at the eagles as potential new homes as hard as they might've the last couple of seasons.
Quote from: L-ong-B-each-I-ggle on December 13, 2005, 05:56:01 PM
all im sayin is it doesn't appear as though were rebuilding to us.. we have a couple holes to fill.. but to FA's and agents this past season may discourage them from looking at the eagles as potential new homes as hard as they might've the last couple of seasons.
money is money no matter the logo on your helmet. they really don't care.
and the nfc isnt really that much stronger. there's only 1 10+ win team right now.
its not even an argument...IF the eagles make the right personel moves there is no question they can win the nfc next year...shtein a healthy mcnabb with no improvements makes them playoff contenders
Quote from: L-ong-B-each-I-ggle on December 13, 2005, 05:56:01 PM
it seems as though the nfc got better while we got worst.
the nfc is not stronger...just look at the fact if the eagles had just split with the cowboys and giants they'd be right on track for a playoff spot.
This isn't going to be anything new here, but just like everyone else I want Julian Peterson. He's definitely worth the money it would take to sign him. After being completely embarassed this season on defense I think the Eagles will try to sign him.
Quote from: Philly Forever on December 14, 2005, 03:43:23 PM
This isn't going to be anything new here, but just like everyone else I want Julian Peterson. He's definitely worth the money it would take to sign him. After being completely embarassed this season on defense I think the Eagles will try to sign him.
Will Witherspoon is a better player and would be a better fit.
Interesting that you think he's better. Both are very good but Peterson has things you can't teach like freakishly long arms and quickness. I'd be happy with either.
Quote from: Philly Forever on December 14, 2005, 04:30:02 PM
things you can't teach like freakishly long arms
i beg to differ
(http://www.csh.rit.edu/~phbob/Benrubi/aber2.jpg)
Throwing Shaun Alexander in there is somewhat disengenuous, I mean how much did he actually play in that game? It was over halfway through the 2nd quarter.
I like Will Witherspoon better at this juncture because he's talented and he's young. I wouldn't mind the Eagles giving him a decent salary because he has some great playing years ahead of him. I'm sure the Eagles would rather prefer him for that reason as well.