The team notified the All-Pro tight end by letter that he has to report to training camp and sign a contract by 12:30 p.m. Saturday or be suspended at least through the season opener.
Gates has not participated in training camp, and his agent has said he will not play for the $380,000, one-year tender that is all the Chargers are required to offer him as a third-year player. The two sides have been unable to come to terms since the team initiated contract talks 10 months ago. SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE
LOL did teams just now realize that writing memos and letters is better than talking in the media and on the phone? Gates obviously should be paid and the Bolts are fools if they don't take care of this. He caught 13 tds last year which is a record for TEs. He wants a 3-year deal with Gonzalez money. They want him for 5 years at less than Gonzo money. If they don't sign him and he plays 6 games this year he's a FA. :deion
If he knows what's good for him, he'll stay out of camp. He needs to get paid before he puts his health on the line again.
He's a guy who is getting underpaid and does have the right to hold out
Quote from: Seabiscuit36 on August 18, 2005, 01:02:21 PM
He's a guy who is getting underpaid and does have the right to hold out
No doubt about that.
Hypocrates.....why is it ok for Gates and not T.O.?
Quote from: hbionic on August 18, 2005, 01:58:53 PM
Hypocrates.....why is it ok for Gates and not T.O.?
Gates isn't one year in and actually did drastically overplay the value of his current contract.+
A word of advice Chuggie: don't call people names you can't spell. It makes you look bad.
Quote from: Tomahawk on August 18, 2005, 02:05:05 PM
Gates isn't one year in and actually did drastically overplay the value of his current contract.+
1 year in, 3 years in, whatever, same farging principle as far as honoring contracts, you either do or you don't...you can't pick and choose unless you really don't give a farg and think its fun...but otherwise, he's just as much an icehole as T.O. is...or just as sound a business man as T.O. is. Whatever.
Gates hasn't made his forturne yet. He's being paid only marginally better than me. Meanwhile, the Super Chargers are making a mint on him. The game is simple: if they want to keep making money, they have to compensate him enough for the risk to his ability to make a living.
Quote from: Diomedes on August 18, 2005, 02:10:40 PM
Gates hasn't made his forturne yet. He's being paid only marginally better than me. Meanwhile, the Super Chargers are making a mint on him. The game is simple: if they want to keep making money, they have to compensate him enough for the risk to his ability to make a living.
Why can't the same be said for T.O.? Last time I checked $380 g's was a farging good salary. You mean to say that if he only would have caught 6 TD's you would be telling him to farg himself? If he deserves a raise, so does T.O.
HB-- TO was ONE YEAR into a 7-year deal....and he'd just gotten a $10 million signing bonus that secured him for life (even more than he was). Gates is in the last year of his rookie deal, never got a big veteran bump and is arguably the best at his position in the entire league; if he gets hurt, he doesn't have that cushion to fall back on-- he's just SOL. To play under that rookie deal and be the best at his position would be retarded.
I understand that G....but you're saying that there are exceptions as for when to honor a contract. That can easily become a skewed with each case with an argument justifying the holdout.
Yes, its unfortunate that Antonio Gates doesn't have a huge signing bonus to fall back on...but correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he an undrafted free agent?
My argument is where do you draw the line?
Pretty clear difference to me.
So you all should be pushing for T.O. to get a re-negotiated contract then. It's the same thing.
A better comparison would be Westbrook over TO. Although, I think Gates has a better chance of getting his than Westbrook.
Quote from: hbionic on August 18, 2005, 02:37:37 PM
So you all should be pushing for T.O. to get a re-negotiated contract then. It's the same thing.
:-D you really enjoy babbling nonsense dont ya?
Quote from: hbionic on August 18, 2005, 02:37:37 PM
So you all should be pushing for T.O. to get a re-negotiated contract then. It's the same thing.
No, we shouldn't and no, it's not. You've got troubles, don't you
Chuggie?
It's the same god damned thing....he doesn't want to honor his contract, just like T.O. because what they signed isn't what they feel they are worth in the present....although it may be true, they still farging signed. You all would be farged in court.
It's not even close to that black and white.
bionic, you are just talking without even bothering to read up on the situation. How you see the situations as the same thing is beyond me.
First off, the Chargers initiated contract talks 10 months ago with Gates. Did the Eagles initiate talks to redo TO's contract this offseason? no.
second, the Chargers are offering Gates a long term deal RIGHT NOW. They have a contract on the table that Gates and his agent dont agree with. At any time did we hear anything about the Eagles offering TO a new contract this offseason? no.
This is directly from the Chargers GM:
Quote"This is not broken off in a negative way," Smith said. "We're wide open to discussion. Let's do a deal. We'd love him to be a part of our future. We don't want him playing for $380,000. We recognize his contributions.
Has Andy Reid at anytime said that he doesnt want TO to play for his current salary and wants to redo it? no.
Quote from: Zanshin on August 18, 2005, 03:14:15 PM
It's not even close to that black and white.
Contracts are. As long as you know what kind of clauses you have protecting you or know the loopholes in it. It just so happens that the Owners right now have the leverage, not the players, you can't fault the Owners for playing by the rules. Yes, its a farged system, but that's they way the contracts are set up. If its anyone's fault, its the agents for not giving them a clear understanding of the consequences of being in a position that he's in. At the beginning, I'm sure it was a lot of money...but by today's market, he's underpaid, but the contract is binding and all you can do is bitch and moan and hold out...and it can work...but your farged otherwise unless you get a new deal or get cut or traded.
So, yes it is that black and white. It may seem unfair, but it is in writing and an enforceable contract.
My point is regarding the isolated part of the Gates thing.
It's obvious that Gates and T.O.'s situation aren't the same...and its more obvious that I didn't read up on it....but regarding holding out....and the market value thing and the contract, its the same.
No, it's not. We're not talking legality, here, really. Gates has the right not to play football if he feels the the risk of playing outweighs the reward. They can't "make" him play in court. It just means he can't go to another team.
Different than Owens entirely, because he wants even more than the mega contract he JUST signed...and it's not worth it for him to sit out.
Totally different situations entirely. I feel the same way about the Hines Ward thing-- that was also totally different.
QuoteHe wants a 3-year deal with Gonzalez money. They want him for 5 years at less than Gonzo money. If they don't sign him and he plays 6 games this year he's a FA
I don't blame the Chargers. You can't pay a guy big time money for one season. Now if he goes out and tears it up this season again, then yeah they need to work something out. He signed with them in 2003 as an undrafted rookie FA. He had twenty something catches that year, and then obviously blew up in 2004.
But, how many times have we seen a player have one or two good seasons and then fall off the face of the earth. You can't pay this guy Tony Gonzalez money after ONE season of good work. Tony Gonzalez has been doing it for a looooooong time.
Chugs doesn't agree.
That's fine.
Allow him to remain blissful in ignorance and move on, people.
:)
Must be something in the L.A. air...wait, that's just the smog.
Quote from: NB on August 18, 2005, 03:44:54 PM
I don't blame the Chargers. You can't pay a guy big time money for one season.
ummm, they want to pay him big money after one season. Just not as much as Gates wants to get.
I'm going to take Chuggie's side on this one. Not because he swallows every time and has no gag reflex but just because I think he's on to something.
Ok, so the general thinking here is that it's ok for Gates to hold out because it's later in his contract, he's getting paid in peanuts compared to other players who put up similar stats and he's drastically out performed his contract. And TO is rediculous for asking for more money just one year into a 7 year deal.
Ok, I'm going to call bullshtein.
2 different scenerios but the same bottom line. Honor your farging contract. Same thing goes with Hines Ward and his (now ended) holdout.
It is everyone's right to ask for a raise. Your's, mine, TO, Gates, anyone. Doesn't matter how long we've been working at our job or how long ago we signed the contract. If you think you deserve a raise, ask for it.
A holdout is inexcusable regardless of whether or not you feel you're getting paid what you deserve. You signed the contract, honor the farging thing. Continue to ask for a raise all you want but if the organization you work for isn't willing to give it to you then swallow your farging pride, lace 'em up and go do the job you're being paid to do. And if the organization isn't willing to give you the money you're looking for then you take your ass to whoever will when your current contract expires. And if you can't wait that long then request a trade to a team willing to give you what you want.
That being said, I do agree very much with this post from MURP and I see the point he's getting at:
Quote from: MURP on August 18, 2005, 03:20:07 PM
bionic, you are just talking without even bothering to read up on the situation. How you see the situations as the same thing is beyond me.
First off, the Chargers initiated contract talks 10 months ago with Gates. Did the Eagles initiate talks to redo TO's contract this offseason? no.
second, the Chargers are offering Gates a long term deal RIGHT NOW. They have a contract on the table that Gates and his agent dont agree with. At any time did we hear anything about the Eagles offering TO a new contract this offseason? no.
This is directly from the Chargers GM: Quote"This is not broken off in a negative way," Smith said. "We're wide open to discussion. Let's do a deal. We'd love him to be a part of our future. We don't want him playing for $380,000. We recognize his contributions.
Has Andy Reid at anytime said that he doesnt want TO to play for his current salary and wants to redo it? no.
IMO though, because the Chargers have made offers to Gates and they are still open to negotiations I think that's even more reason why Gates needs to be with the team and not holding out. The Chargers seem to be actively trying to come to an agreement with Gates and the best thing he can do to help his cause is get his ass on the field and remind them exactly what they're are going to be paying him for.
Sorry, but if I ran a business of any type and one of my best employees stopped coming to work because he wanted more money I would fire his ass on the spot. Keep doing the job you're being paid to do because in the end it's a hell of a lot better than the unemployment line.
Also, since I know someone is going to bring it up.......
I am equally against teams cutting a player for salary cap purposes. It's a shady tactic used by NFL owners and GM's and should be illegal. It's a 2 way street and I beleive that if a player needs to honor his contract then so should the team who offered it to him.
Welcome to the opinion....but the situations couldn't be more different. Surely, you wouldn't put him in the same category as Owens.
Quote from: Zanshin on August 18, 2005, 07:19:03 PM
Welcome to the opinion....but the situations couldn't be more different. Surely, you wouldn't put him in the same category as Owens.
He's a player unhappy with his contract. Sounds like the same category to me. :)
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: Zanshin on August 18, 2005, 07:19:03 PM
Welcome to the opinion....but the situations couldn't be more different. Surely, you wouldn't put him in the same category as Owens.
He's a player unhappy with his contract. Sounds like the same category to me. :)
C'mon, Sarge! You can't swing a dead cat in an NFL locker room and not hit someone who's pissed off about his "terrible" contract.
Gates has a legitimate beef and Owens doesn't. It's clearly apples and oranges in this instance.
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 07:17:01 PMAnd if the organization isn't willing to give you the money you're looking for then you take your ass to whoever will when your current contract expires.
Isn't that exactly what Gates is doing? He'd rather not make 300K and sit out than make the 300K and risk not just his financial security for life, but his health. Seems to me he's playing by the rules.
If Gates were already rich for life, I wouldn't support him in this effort. But the fact is that he's not rich. Not even close. I teach people to make farging purchase orders and I'm making 90k. I know SVPs who don't risk a damn hair on their head, making what he's making. People who's bosses aren't making nearly so much on their efforts as the Chargers are on Gates'.
The team gets to break the contract, so does the player. Some players have moral authority to do it..Gates is one. Others have no moral authority..TO is one.
Quote from: Jerome99RIP on August 18, 2005, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: Zanshin on August 18, 2005, 07:19:03 PM
Welcome to the opinion....but the situations couldn't be more different. Surely, you wouldn't put him in the same category as Owens.
He's a player unhappy with his contract. Sounds like the same category to me. :)
C'mon, Sarge! You can't swing a dead cat in an NFL locker room and not hit someone who's pissed off about his "terrible" contract.
Gates has a legitimate beef and Owens doesn't. It's clearly apples and oranges in this instance.
I'm not saying that Gates doesn't have a legit beef. Of course he does. So did Hines Ward. But both are (or in Ward's case, were) equally wrong for holding out. I hope Gates gets his money. But I still don't think that being unhappy with your contract gives you the right to stop coming to work. After all, you are the one who signed it.
Yeah, I don't see it so cut and dry as that. Not with TO, and not with Gates.
Quote from: Jerome99RIP on August 18, 2005, 07:46:32 PMGates has a legitimate beef and Owens doesn't. It's clearly apples and oranges in this instance.
How is it that Owen's doesn't have legitamate beef? He almost knows he's going to get cut after this season. So...if on the open market, he could command anywhere between 5.5 and 7.5 million....that's a differance of 2 to 4 million a year.
Gates, same thing....on the open market, he could get (this is just a number out my ass)....between 2.5 and 3.5 million per years....that's a differance of 2.2 to 3.2 million per year. Almost the same as Owens if not THE same.
Just because you guys feel sorry for one and not the other...that's all it is.
Quote from: Diomedes on August 18, 2005, 07:49:20 PM
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 07:17:01 PMAnd if the organization isn't willing to give you the money you're looking for then you take your ass to whoever will when your current contract expires.
Isn't that exactly what Gates is doing? He'd rather not make 300K and sit out than make the 300K and risk not just his financial security for life, but his health. Seems to me he's playing by the rules.
If Gates were already rich for life, I wouldn't support him in this effort. But the fact is that he's not rich. Not even close. I teach people to make farging purchase orders and I'm making 90k. I know SVPs who don't risk a damn hair on their head, making what he's making. People who's bosses aren't making nearly so much on their efforts as the Chargers are on Gates'.
I can somewhat agree with what you're saying. However, $300k (or whatever he made) was plenty of money for Gates to live on and "risk his financial security and health" for last year. He could have just as easily had a career ending injury last year. Fortunately for him he didn't but that was a risk he was willing to take. I want to emphasize the fact that I am not against Gates wanting more money. He's earned it and he deserves it. But I guess I don't allow as much room for gray area as you guys do when it comes to holdouts. I think they are a direct breach of contract and players should be penalized severely for doing it.
QuoteThe team gets to break the contract, so does the player.
Ha! I knew it. :P
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 07:17:01 PM
Also, since I know someone is going to bring it up.......
I am equally against teams cutting a player for salary cap purposes. It's a shady tactic used by NFL owners and GM's and should be illegal. It's a 2 way street and I beleive that if a player needs to honor his contract then so should the team who offered it to him.
ill still go back to my point, which I feel is the bottom line. The Chargers General Manager himself is quoted as saying
QuoteWe don't want him playing for $380,000. We recognize his contributions.
Why should Gates go suit up for his current contract if his own GM doesnt even feel he should? Neither Gates nor his GM feel his current contract works, so why the hell does anyone else?
Quote from: SSgt PSN on August 18, 2005, 08:00:20 PMHowever, $300k (or whatever he made) was plenty of money for Gates to live on and "risk his financial security and health" for last year. He could have just as easily had a career ending injury last year. Fortunately for him he didn't but that was a risk he was willing to take.
At the time, it was a smart risk to take, because he had no leverage to command a deal which lowered his exposure. He hadn't just set an NFL record for TDs in a season at the position. Now that he has a year of near unprecedented success, his value is much higher. He has the leverage. He must use it. If he plays nice guy and comes in to camp, and suffers a massive knee injury next week, no one is going to sign him to a sympathy contract for millions. That's what's at stake...a lifetime's security. He has to make the right deal, and he's got the leverage to do it. Moreover, he's got what I call the "moral authority." He's not already rich. $380k might sound like a lot to some people, but it's not. Not if you're risking your neck, and not if in all likelihood you will make that rate for three or four years then you make nothing.
TO has everything already. He's not at the end of a low dollar deal. He's at the beginning of a mega-deal. He's set for life. He's taken everything public, insulted his quarterback, bla bla bla. TO has no moral authority. He even manages to squander the precious coin that was his Super Bowl performance and Herculean return by demanding more than his worth.
Vastly different situations imho. But I'm just repeating myself, I suppose.
drunk typing is fun.
QuoteIn order to avoid a suspension, the team told the All-Pro tight end that he will need to either sign a new multi-year deal or the $380,000, one-year contract he was tendered as an exclusive-rights free agent.
Antonio Gates situation is not like TO's, Ward's or Westbrook's situations. TO and Ward were both under contract. Westbrook
signed his one year RFA tender.
Antonio Gates did not sign his tender yet, he is not under contract. He is an exclusive rights free agent which means he is the Chargers property for one more year, then RFA. He didn't sign the tender yet, he isn't under contract.
The difference is Gates is playing on his rookie contract. He had zero leverage when that was written, he had to prove himself, which is why it's at the vet minimum. Now, the team recognizes his ability, he shouldn't be risking his arguably only big payday for a little contract he has vastly out-performed. TO got his big payday, and his risk is minimal because of it. Which is why his holdout is bullshtein. Gates also hasn't slammed management and teammates in his quest for a new contract.
F TO.
Chargers' statement at 4:25pm ET (http://www.chargers.com/news/headline_detail.cfm?news_key=2252)
QuoteTight end Antonio Gates did not report and sign a contract by 12:30 pm today. The Chargers and Gates' agent Andre Colona negotiated throughout the morning but could not reach an agreement on years or compensation. At this point, Gates does not feel comfortable in signing the team's tender offer and going back to work.
As a result, Gates will be placed on a Roster Exempt list and will not play in the first three games following the date he signs with the team. Currently he will miss the games versus Minnesota (Aug. 26), San Francisco (Sept. 1) and the season opener versus Dallas (Sept. 11).
The Chargers are disappointed Gates will miss the season opener versus Dallas, but remain hopeful of reaching an agreement soon.
After the announcement, Gates' agent said he'll report tomorrow (http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/chargers/20050820-1444-gates.html)
Think they'll actually make him miss that game?
Gates, full of excuses, ruled out of opener (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2140608)
Gates gets his deal (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2141162)
Its good to know that at least one professional football player will be able to feed his family this year.
What a mess of negotiating on both sides. So, he gets his new deal, but missed camp and can't play the first game. That's genius thinking on the part of the Chargers right there. Miss camp, get suspended a game...and be rewarded with millions. Sends a great message.
I want to not play for the Chargers, too.
Quote from: rjs246 on August 23, 2005, 03:18:56 PM
Its good to know that at least one professional football player will be able to feed his family this year.
I find your comments to be callous and heartless, rjs.
Those guys work hard for every dollar they make and deserve to be paid accordingly.
:boo
Wah wah wah.