2017/2018 Phillies Off-Season Thread

[ice grillin you]

if their system is overrated and you arent counting on the young guys to propel them to contention then four years is actually optimistic because it would mean they would have had to clean their system out and start over...that might be 8-10 years away

if you think they dont become contenders until they start signing a bunch of people then 2018 isnt out of the question

[MDS]

its much easier to half pay attention, throw out generic terms like "minor league talent" and then troll women's rights groups on reddit

[smeags]

somebody's getting frustrated.

[QB Eagles]

I'm real pessimistic about Klentak and the Phils rebuilding overall (plus I think the idea of getting Manny or some other mega star is a fever dream), but I don't get being upset about the Santana deal... what exactly is it preventing them from doing?

[SD]

its much easier to half pay attention, throw out generic terms like "minor league talent" and then troll women's rights groups on reddit

Ok...let's have an in depth conversation. Why will they contend in 2019? Please tell me the talent they have that will develop, please tell me realistic free agents they'll sign.

It's real easy to throw out generic years they'll compete

[MDS]

they are going to have as much as money as anyone to spend next offseason. the odds are stacked against them, of course, to get machado or harper. but they are setting up the team to be competitive in that bidding.

they have the depth in their farm system to trade for a pretty good starting pitcher. archer, cole, stroman. they have the money to throw at pomeranz, harvey, corbin, keuchel, ryu, morton, etc to fill out the rotation. cole hamels might even be available!

they have the money to get a strong back end RP. britton, ramos miller, robertson, wilson, allen. lotta names.

even if they dont get machado, they cant still get the other parts and at least get closer. undoubtedly, that offseason will have some major ripple effects and some teams may begin tanking after the dust settles.

[SD]

That's a lot of ifs and theys

The Phillies have never rebuilt through free agency. But I'll play along, do you see them outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Sox, Tigers, Dodgers etc for free agents? I hate to burst your bubble, but Santana isn't enticing players to come here.

Trading prospects for starters. That's a lot of assuming.

If you told me...they'll compete because Crawford and Kingery are going to turn into stars in the next two seasons. Ok, they have a few potential prospects who could develop in 2 years. Their top tier talent is mostly in A ball and won't be ready for 3-4 seasons. There's no young core of talent that's just sitting there waiting for their turn. What's up now is a bunch of maybes. You don't compete with what's currently on the roster or in their minor leagues. So it's your hope that Klentak and the Phillies will be major players in free agency and add other pieces by trading their prospects for major league talent in the next 2 years. 99% sure we had this exact same conversation a few seasons ago. I'd look it up, but I'm too lazy. You're a bigger Phillies homer than Jay is an Eagles homer.

I'll be back in 2019 to say I told you so.

[ice grillin you]

Their top tier talent is mostly in A ball and won't be ready for 3-4 seasons.

this is just not true and you are selling them short by only looking at lower level prospects....they have a ton of talent that has already hit the majors is on the 40 man roster and/or are scratching the surface of the bigs and they are mostly all under 25....id argue that a maikel franco is as important as a franklyn kilome right now....hes still young enough to develop but hes also has fulfilled the promise of actually making the bigs...its awesome to think of the prospects of a sanchez or ortiz but its just as important or maybe more important to focus on players like this developing into full time major leaguers...and these guys arent 3-4 years away

crawford kingery alfaro williams nola vasquez pivetta elfin quinn altherr franco hoskins eickhoff thompson

I'll be back in 2019 to say I told you so.

this is sort of moving the goal posts...i agree with you that they probably arent competing in 2019...i mean thats 15 months away...but you also said up to four years

i think the most realistic year would be 2020...that gives them two offseasons to sign people trade for people and the young players to develop into their own

The Phillies have never rebuilt through free agency. But I'll play along, do you see them outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Sox, Tigers, Dodgers etc for free agents? I hate to burst your bubble, but Santana isn't enticing players to come here.

they have the money to be in on almost every player in any year....i just dont see them ever getting generational superstars in their mid 20's like harper or machado those guys go to the elite franchises (and not the tigers)....anything below that tier tho they will always be in the mix

[MDS]

thats the thing is they could also sign 2 players (lets say blackmon and donaldson) for what it cost to get machado/harper. havas is going to have his inferiority complex about "elite" franchises but the fact of the matter is the phillies can spend with anybody considering how barren their payroll is and how much money the big boys have committed.

what they cant do, right now, is get on the level of the yanks, sox, cubs, dodgers in terms of competing for a title. but thats why they threw money at the bullpen and santana. thats why they are likely going to make a trade or 2 for starting pitching. they are putting themselves in a position to compete for free agents next offseason.

will it work? probably not. but the franchise-changing FA class is happening next year, so its piss or get off the pot. you have to ramp up the rebuild to be a factor in this.

[ice grillin you]

they are never signing a 25 year old who is the best player in the majors

they can get 30 year old great players or 25 year old up and comers but they arent competing to get 25 year old potential hall of famers

they can trade for them of course but they arent signing them

[MDS]

i mean probably not, i dont have any expectation that they will sign MM. but im not going to write it off as an impossibility so i can wallow in my misery.

[SD]

Their top tier talent is mostly in A ball and won't be ready for 3-4 seasons.

this is just not true and you are selling them short by only looking at lower level prospects....they have a ton of talent that has already hit the majors is on the 40 man roster and/or are scratching the surface of the bigs and they are mostly all under 25....id argue that a maikel franco is as important as a franklyn kilome right now....hes still young enough to develop but hes also has fulfilled the promise of actually making the bigs...its awesome to think of the prospects of a sanchez or ortiz but its just as important or maybe more important to focus on players like this developing into full time major leaguers...and these guys arent 3-4 years away

crawford kingery alfaro williams nola vasquez pivetta elfin quinn altherr franco hoskins eickhoff thompson

I'll be back in 2019 to say I told you so.

this is sort of moving the goal posts...i agree with you that they probably arent competing in 2019...i mean thats 15 months away...but you also said up to four years

i think the most realistic year would be 2020...that gives them two offseasons to sign people trade for people and the young players to develop into their own

The Phillies have never rebuilt through free agency. But I'll play along, do you see them outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Sox, Tigers, Dodgers etc for free agents? I hate to burst your bubble, but Santana isn't enticing players to come here.

they have the money to be in on almost every player in any year....i just dont see them ever getting generational superstars in their mid 20's like harper or machado those guys go to the elite franchises (and not the tigers)....anything below that tier tho they will always be in the mix

Mikael Franco is what he is. He's not going to improve.

Sixto and Ortiz are 19. Get a grip. We've been down this road before of overhyping young prospects. Remember this guy? http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=592145#/career/R/pitching/2017/ALL

I actually said 3-4 years, which is right in line with what you think

They're 3-4 years from contention

they are not 3/4 years from contending. they are planning contending in 2019 because the FA class is going dictating that they must.

lol

ok

3-4 years, trust me dude.

You're right, money amount is irrelevant. So let's look at the rebuild realistically. They need 3-4 prospects to turn into All Stars and need to add starting pitching.

You actually agreed with most of my post for the most part.

[ice grillin you]

Their top tier talent is mostly in A ball and won't be ready for 3-4 seasons.

this is just not true and you are selling them short by only looking at lower level prospects....they have a ton of talent that has already hit the majors is on the 40 man roster and/or are scratching the surface of the bigs and they are mostly all under 25....id argue that a maikel franco is as important as a franklyn kilome right now....hes still young enough to develop but hes also has fulfilled the promise of actually making the bigs...its awesome to think of the prospects of a sanchez or ortiz but its just as important or maybe more important to focus on players like this developing into full time major leaguers...and these guys arent 3-4 years away

crawford kingery alfaro williams nola vasquez pivetta elfin quinn altherr franco hoskins eickhoff thompson

I'll be back in 2019 to say I told you so.

this is sort of moving the goal posts...i agree with you that they probably arent competing in 2019...i mean thats 15 months away...but you also said up to four years

i think the most realistic year would be 2020...that gives them two offseasons to sign people trade for people and the young players to develop into their own

The Phillies have never rebuilt through free agency. But I'll play along, do you see them outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Sox, Tigers, Dodgers etc for free agents? I hate to burst your bubble, but Santana isn't enticing players to come here.

they have the money to be in on almost every player in any year....i just dont see them ever getting generational superstars in their mid 20's like harper or machado those guys go to the elite franchises (and not the tigers)....anything below that tier tho they will always be in the mix

Mikael Franco is what he is. He's not going to improve.

Sixto and Ortiz are 19. Get a grip. We've been down this road before of overhyping young prospects. Remember this guy? http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=592145#/career/R/pitching/2017/ALL

what on earth are you talking about....you are completely contradicting yourself....you just said 3-4 years because all their good talent in in the low levels...now you are saying get a grip on their low level talent (even tho i said nothing about how good either sanchez or ortiz would end up being)...so which is it....are those top prospects at the lower levels going to make them contend in four years or are they overhyped?

and im not here to cherry pick each of the names i listed and argue what they will or wont be in two years...but if you dont think a 25 year old has a chance to get better then you have never followed baseball...you are practically a baby at 25 in this sport...my point is that they have a ton of guys at or near the major league level that can go a long way towards letting them contend in two years if it goes right...this was to your point that they wont contend for 4 years because all their talent is in single A and again then you say get a grip about the talent at single A its all overrated

and im not positive when or if they will contend but 2019 is the most logical choice...if they arent contending for another 4 years then they arent contending for another 8 probably because that means a lot of shtein has gone catastrophically wrong

[MDS]

they will contend in 3 years when sixto comes up except he probably sucks, but thats just a random number i threw out so whatever

their best hitting prospects have already graduated to the majors. theyre here. if all of these guys wind up sucking, its going to take a while. after kingery their best bet is proably haisley who they just drafted.

pitching wise they have some strong arms in A ball. kilome is AA. young arms are more unpredictable than anything. but theres a reason they are going to an 8 man bullpen and hunting for SP in a trade.

[smeags]