"Union's TO ARGUMENTS WAY OFF BASE"..PFT.com

Started by bobbyinlondon, November 10, 2005, 10:26:36 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Diomedes

There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists." - Yosemite Park Ranger

rjs246

I refuse to start a new thread about TO, but this is funny.

More proof that Ralph Nader has lost his mind and doesn't realize that no one gives a shtein what he thinks (sidebar from an ESPN story).

QuoteRalph Nader, onetime presidential candidate and consumer advocate, has asked Eagles CEO Jeffrey Lurie and NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue to reconsider Terrell Owens' suspension.

In a letter to the football officials dated Nov. 10, Nader called Owens' comments boorish, but defended the receiver's right to speak.

"If the Eagles management declines to remedy its mistake, commissioner Tagliabue, you should intervene to overturn the team's decision, which dishonors this country's traditional respect for free speech and cheats fans of an opportunity to see arguably the best receiver in football.

"Let him play."

Nader signed the letter as founder of League of Fans, which he describes as a sports reform project.

"Fans have purchased tickets for Eagles' games, in Philadelphia and elsewhere, on the assumption that they will see one of the game's most exciting receivers, so long as he is healthy enough to play. The Eagles' action denies them this opportunity."

-- ESPN.com news services
Is rjs gonna have to choke a bitch?

Let them eat bootstraps.

phillywin2k5

Quote from: Diomedes on November 10, 2005, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: Don Ho on November 10, 2005, 02:13:07 PMAgreed. Please keep in mind that Upshaw would defend Pol Pot, Tojo, Bin Laden, Charles Manson if they had played in the NFL.

I believe Hitler was a DB for the old Canton Bulldogs before relocating.

You left George Bush off that list. 

both Georges!
if you take advice from people in the 700 level, you'll find yourself sitting next to them -- Buddy Ryan

PoopyfaceMcGee


T_Section224

Quote"Fans have purchased tickets for Eagles' games, in Philadelphia and elsewhere, on the assumption that they will see one of the game's most exciting receivers, so long as he is healthy enough to play. The Eagles' action denies them this opportunity."
oddly enough i'm one of the very fans he's talking about and completely disagree with him.
Proud Sponsor of Mike Bartrum

EJ72

Quote from: rjs246 on November 10, 2005, 03:00:41 PM
I refuse to start a new thread about TO, but this is funny.

More proof that Ralph Nader has lost his mind and doesn't realize that no one gives a shtein what he thinks (sidebar from an ESPN story).

QuoteRalph Nader, onetime presidential candidate and consumer advocate, has asked Eagles CEO Jeffrey Lurie and NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue to reconsider Terrell Owens' suspension.

In a letter to the football officials dated Nov. 10, Nader called Owens' comments boorish, but defended the receiver's right to speak.

"If the Eagles management declines to remedy its mistake, commissioner Tagliabue, you should intervene to overturn the team's decision, which dishonors this country's traditional respect for free speech and cheats fans of an opportunity to see arguably the best receiver in football.

"Let him play."

Nader signed the letter as founder of League of Fans, which he describes as a sports reform project.

"Fans have purchased tickets for Eagles' games, in Philadelphia and elsewhere, on the assumption that they will see one of the game's most exciting receivers, so long as he is healthy enough to play. The Eagles' action denies them this opportunity."

-- ESPN.com news services

Nader makes me want to....Ralph.

That was bad. :)

PhillyGirl

#21
QuoteBloch to decide whether Eagles were unreasonable
By Chris Mortensen
ESPN Insider

Richard Bloch is an arbitrator, a premium public speaker for hire, a Washington taterskins season-ticket holder and a magician by hobby.

Bloch will decide very soon whether Terrell Owens will disappear or reappear with the Philadelphia Eagles and the NFL.

   "What the Eagles did is like a judge sentencing a defendant on a Friday for a month, and then he comes back on Monday and says, 'No, let's make that four months.' "
      —Richard Berthelsen, general counsel for the NFL Players Association

Bloch is the arbitrator who -- on Nov. 18 -- will hear the NFL Players Association grievance that, on Owens' behalf, claims the Eagles have improperly suspended the receiver for four games under the "conduct detrimental to the team" clause in his contract. In addition, the union will claim that additional punitive action -- announcing that Owens would not be allowed to play another game this season -- also is excessive.

Don't assume just because Owens has been loud, obnoxious and disruptive that he doesn't have a case. Bloch could reduce the suspension without pay to one game, and he could reinstate Owens to the team, buying into the players' union argument that the punishment is excessive and the case is flimsy.

The Eagles believe otherwise. They have documented a number of instances in which Owens displayed misconduct, some of which Bloch might find disgusting, harmless or even humorous.

According to sources who have seen the document, allegations the Eagles make against Owens in their case include:

• He was already on notice for previous inappropriate behavior.
• He did not participate in a team autograph session in training camp.
• He told coach Andy Reid, his boss, to shut up and showed further disrespect by saying that his last name wasn't Reid, that he wasn't one of Reid's children.
• He told offensive coordinator Brad Childress not to speak to him unless Owens spoke to him first.
• He said he will not give his full effort.
• He parked his car in a coach's designated spot.
• He parked his vehicle in a handicapped spot on another occasion.
• He was late to a mandatory offensive meeting.
• He failed to comply with team rules pertaining to travel attire.
• He publicly criticized the organization as "classless" and publicly criticized quarterback Donovan McNabb.
• He engaged in a fight with Hugh Douglas at the team facility.

That's a pretty interesting list. From a distance, it seems the Eagles certainly acted within reason when they suspended Owens. Or did they?

Bloch is the designated NFL arbiter because of his familiarity with the collective bargaining agreement and the sport itself. The arbitration hearing will take place in Philadelphia. It is very much like a legal proceeding, with witnesses who will be sworn to their testimony.

The Eagles, as the employer, will present their case first, an effort headed by league counsel Buck Briggs and attorney Daniel Nash. Owens, the employee, will be defended by Richard Berthelsen, general counsel for the NFLPA, and attorney Jeffrey Kessler. Both sides are allowed to cross-examine witnesses and make their arguments before Bloch, who is allowed to ask his own questions.

Those arguments and answers, along with the letter of the CBA law, will determine Bloch's ruling, which is expected within seven days of the hearing. In fact, the union will ask Bloch to make an immediate ruling but that would be an exception rather than the rule.

When describing his arbitration job in his speaking engagements (his fee starts at $7,500), Bloch has said that "[people try] to convince me and persuade me to suspend disbelief and skepticism."

In Bloch's words, there is an "art of persuasion." He cites such important elements as simplicity, eye contact, direct responses, being likable and listening skills. In the end, Bloch is judge and jury. His decision is binding and cannot be challenged in another legal venue, according to labor law and the CBA agreed upon by management and the union.

There is no absolute way to read how Bloch will rule on this case. In contract disputes, he has ruled for players and for management. He determined earlier this year that Ricky Williams did have to repay the Miami Dolphins approximately $8.6 million in bonus money for breaching his contract. Two years ago, he ruled in favor of Chad Morton, who argued that the Jets did not properly match an offer sheet, allowing him to play for the taterskins -- an uncomfortable twist in light of Bloch's status as a Washington season-ticket holder.

In matters of discipline, however, Bloch has not hesitated to reduce penalties for players even when it appeared a team was on solid footing.

In 1996, Saints defensive end Renaldo Turnbull had a one-game suspension without pay reduced to a fine when he left the field -- or "quit" on the team -- after he was berated by an assistant coach for failing to "contain" his side on a touchdown run by 49ers quarterback Steve Young. This was in a game during the same season that Jim Mora quit as the Saints coach. In the hearing, Berthelsen asked a Saints official on the witness stand to describe how Mora could quit and not be disciplined without pay, whereas Turnbull was being docked despite having eventually come out of the locker room and returned to the game in question. It's uncertain whether Bloch was persuaded by that question, but his ruling favored the player more than the team.

Before he quit, Mora once suspended running back Ray Zellers for one game when Zellers refused to participate in certain drills. The suspension was reduced to a fine.

Reggie Langhorne, a wide receiver for the Cleveland Browns, was in then-Browns head coach Bill Belichick's doghouse. He refused to participate on the scout team and after practice said publicly that he wanted to be traded. Belichick suspended him for a game; the suspension was reduced to a fine.

The difference between losing a game check and being fined is significant. Owens' game checks are worth $191,176 each week of the 17-week season.

Historical perspective

The most notable decision Bloch has made in recent years with the NFL was a huge blow to the players' union, yet it is a ruling the union could use in its favor in Owens' case.

Bloch ruled that a controversial "loyalty clause" in the Bengals' contracts was valid and enforceable. It was referred to in the media as the "Pickens clause" after wide receiver Carl Pickens (what else?) criticized the team publicly. The Cincinnati clause Bloch upheld specifically stated that the team could demand all or part of the player's signing bonus if the player criticized the Bengals or their employees through the media.

Bloch ruled that teams have the right to independently negotiate stipulations in player contracts; the player had the right not to sign the contract.

The Eagles have no such "loyalty clause" in Owens' contract. However, ProFootballTalk.com cites Paragraph 2 of Owens' contract, which it claims reads, "He agrees to give his best efforts and loyalty to the Club, and to conduct himself on and off the field with appropriate recognition of the fact that the success of professional football depends largely on public respect for and approval of those associated with the game."

The Eagles also believe they have carefully documented and proceeded legally with an airtight case. But there are circumstances that suggest otherwise.

In a letter the team sent to Owens Saturday, the Eagles simply stated that he was being suspended for the taterskins game for conduct detrimental to the team and that his status beyond that would be addressed this week. The union will argue that the team never stated it was reserving its right to discipline Owens the maximum (four games) under the collective bargaining agreement. It's a double-jeopardy argument -- you can't punish Owens twice for the same violations.

A technicality? Yes. Sometimes technicalities are vital in these cases, although the Eagles certainly will argue that Owens' final action -- failure to apologize privately in a team meeting -- came on a Saturday before the team was set to travel and that they properly reserved their right to discipline Owens further until after the game.

Berthelsen doesn't buy that argument. It's important to Owens' bank account. A one-game suspension versus a four-game suspension is a difference of almost $600,000.

"What the Eagles did is like a judge sentencing a defendant on a Friday for a month, and then he comes back on Monday and says, 'No, let's make that four months,'" Berthelsen said.

The most interesting angle of the union's demand is that Owens be reinstated to his exact team status before the suspension. Even if Bloch upholds the four-game penalty, the union will make the case that Owens has the right to work, to report to the facility, to attend meetings and to practice.

"Oh, yeah. They'll still boo. They have to. They're born to boo. Just now, they'll only boo with two Os instead of like four." - Larry Andersen

PhillyGirl

QuoteGene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFLPA, is pressuring the Eagles to release Owens after the suspension is lifted.

The Eagles surely will use their own technicality to prevent Bloch from making this so-called "reinstatement" a part of his decision. In the most recent letter to Owens -- the one that added the four-game suspension -- the team makes no written mention that he no longer will be allowed to play for Philadelphia.

In other words, the Eagles will argue to Bloch that the arbitration hearing is about the four-game suspension and nothing else. The union will contend that Reid's public statement at Monday's news conference is an indisputable declaration that making Owens inactive for the rest of the season is an extension of the disciplinary action and, thus, also is excessive.

Won't Owens still get paid during the final five games when he is inactive? Yes, he will get his base salary, but the team will be denying Owens an opportunity to earn incentives and make the Pro Bowl.

Yes, the Buccaneers successfully kept Keyshawn Johnson away from their facility for the final six games of the 2003 season after his very public dispute with coach Jon Gruden.

The difference? Johnson never asked the union to file a grievance on his behalf. He didn't want to play for the Bucs (Gruden specifically) and was content to stay away as long as he was getting paid.

Of all NFL players, Owens is the one guy who would have enough gall to show up for work when he has been told to stay away (with pay). Sure, both sides could make such a situation very uncomfortable, but this level of discomfort could compel the Eagles to release Owens, which would give him an opportunity to play elsewhere this season.

Something else that might not bode well for the Eagles' case is that in the long list of allegations against Owens, it appears he has been fined only once -- a measly $150 for being late to that one offensive unit meeting.

Owens wasn't fined when Reid sent him home from training camp for one week. His paycheck was not docked, either, because players' salaries aren't paid until the regular season is under way. As for skipping the autograph session, the contract is vague about Owen' obligations and he can argue that he could have satisfied that aspect at other functions.

Owens also apparently wasn't fined when he wore a Michael Irvin retro jersey after the Eagles lost to the Cowboys in Dallas -- a clear slap in the face to his team, no matter what his relationship with the former Cowboys great and current ESPN analyst.

So, if the Eagles have deemed all of Owens' actions worthy of just $150 in fines until this past week, how egregious did they consider his conduct? There is a concept of progressive discipline that the union certainly will argue that the Eagles ignored in this case.

Reid no doubt will be a key witness for the Eagles and Bloch. He will have to convince Bloch that he did not have a ironhanded approach because he truly cared about Owens, that he was patient in his effort to resolve problems, and that he believed he could improve Owens' behavior through his own personal leadership and counseling.

Reid surely will say that he even gave Owens a chance to get out of his latest shenanigans with a detailed apology. The union will argue that Owens did apologize Friday before Reid demanded another apology -- more personal to quarterback Donovan McNabb and specifically in a team meeting -- that Owens refused to make.

As for that fight between Owens and Douglas, most accounts suggest that Douglas -- no longer a player but a designated team ambassador -- was the instigator. Some of the facts about that fight remain unclear.

Bloch does have a sense of humor, evident when one views his speaking engagements.

One must wonder how he will react internally to the allegation that Owens has parked in a coach's spot. We don't know whether it was Reid's spot or Childress' or some other assistant's. Bloch could see that as flaunting disregard for company policy or, on the funny side, maybe he will wonder whether Owens actually was getting to work earlier than a coach.

Either way, Bloch appears to have considerable discretion. And whether he is persuaded by his own personal feelings about Owens is known only to him.


Didn't this Skins fan piece of shtein have something to do with some other Philly arbitration thing before? I remember him....
"Oh, yeah. They'll still boo. They have to. They're born to boo. Just now, they'll only boo with two Os instead of like four." - Larry Andersen

Father Demon

That's what I was thinking.  Is this the same arbitrator that was to hear the case about 81, Baltimore, and Philly?

I actually have a bad-feeling about the way the arbitration hearing will go.  I have the feeling that it will decide a one-game suspension, and resinstatement to the same status.  All that does is give 81 more of his money back and allow him to practice and use the facilities -- they can't make the eagles play him -- but having him around could still be quite the distraction if 81 decides to play it that way.
The drawback to marital longevity is your wife always knows when you're really interested in her and when you're just trying to bury it.

PhillyGirl

No, Steven Burbank was the arbitrator for when he came here.
"Oh, yeah. They'll still boo. They have to. They're born to boo. Just now, they'll only boo with two Os instead of like four." - Larry Andersen

stillupfront

Quote from: Diomedes on November 10, 2005, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: Don Ho on November 10, 2005, 02:13:07 PMAgreed. Please keep in mind that Upshaw would defend Pol Pot, Tojo, Bin Laden, Charles Manson if they had played in the NFL.

I believe Hitler was a DB for the old Canton Bulldogs before relocating.

You left George Bush off that list. 

Mao, Stalin, Kruschev


1/9/06


Very proud sponsor of DarWIN Walker BSSE

Proud to be sponsored by HBionic

General_Failure

I wonder how much more entertaining this would get if the injury report read like this

Owens - IR - groin pull

The man. The myth. The legend.

methdeez

Why do even care about the money?
The Eagles have plenty and so does Lurie. We will underspend on the cap like we do every year
Let him collect his whole years salary and stay the hell away.

Feva

SalPal reported that Eagles officials have pretty much said just that.  They said they'll pay TO for the entire 9 games if it comes to that... won't even go after any of his SB.  They just want to get rid of him.
"Now I'm completing up the other half of that triangle" - Emmitt Smith on joining Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin in the Hall of Fame

"If you have sex with a prostitute against her will, is that considered rape or shoplifting?" -- 2 Live Stews

PhillyGirl

QuoteRev. Jackson: T.O. penalty too stiff



CHICAGO - The Rev. Jesse Jackson, founder and president of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, issued the following statement yesterday on the suspension of Terrell Owens:

"Terrell Owens did an interview last week and engaged in some unsportsmanlike speech, deemed detrimental to the team, but nonetheless free speech. He expressed some dissatisfaction with his contract, his team and the Eagles' organization, which should have been expressed in a more professional manner. The Eagles have suspended T.O. for four games without pay and have decided to deactivate him for the rest of the year. His future in the National Football League is uncertain, thus potentially ending his career at its heights.

"This punishment is much too severe for the charge. If he had been caught shaving points, selling drugs, carrying a gun or fighting some fans, who provoked him, and he had not shown sufficient restraint, we could understand the severe suspension, because those are very serious and illegal acts. Unfortunately for T.O., who belatedly apologized 3 days after the infraction, the real question is do his comments warrant a penalty this severe?

"The answer is no. This does not warrant a 1-year ban from the game. The NFL Players Association has taken a position that the punishment does not correspond with the infraction and the association wants the Eagles to cut T.O. if they are not going to reinstate him. I agree. T.O. has publicly apologized. His heart is contrite. If the Philadelphia Eagles' owners do not find his apology acceptable and no longer aim to maintain an association with him, they should release him to the open market or free agency, allowing him to test the free market for his services. I call for fairness in this dispute."

Are you kidding me with this farging bullshtein already?
"Oh, yeah. They'll still boo. They have to. They're born to boo. Just now, they'll only boo with two Os instead of like four." - Larry Andersen