2006 Philles Season Thread

[PhillyPhreak54]

MSBNC - Phillies tried to trade for Ichiro

The Houston Astros and Philadelphia Phillies both tried to pry star outfielder Ichiro Suzuki away from the Seattle Mariners in the hours leading up to the trade deadline, according to a report in the Seattle Times on Tuesday.

The Astros reportedly asked for Ichiro after the Mariners inquired about the availability of ace pitcher Roy Oswalt. The Astros also dangled Oswalt to the Orioles in an effort to get Miguel Tejada, but were rejected.

According to the Times, the Phillies also asked for Ichiro in any deal involving Bobby Abreu, who was eventually traded to the Yankees for four minor leaguers. The Times reported that the Phillies also offered pitchers Cory Lidle and Arthur Rhodes with Abreu.

[mpmcgraw]

I hate Rowand partly because the same fans at the park who hated Abreu and Burrell, idolize Rowand and it makes no sense.

I would rather bring back Ron Gant and put him in centerfield.

that is incredibly accurate.

[reese125]

A+ for trying Gillick

[PhillyPhreak54]

Well, as much as I like Bourn he is not proven right now. So I would like to find out that he can do a little something before giving up on Rowand. And will Victorino be exposed if he plays everyday?

And I think that him smashing his face up had something to do with his hitting being subpar since. Because I believe that is when he really started to cool off at the plate.

He doesn't walk a lot. Thats true. And thats why I would rather have him hitting 6th.

Ok, so you are the Phillies GM.  Assumming that Rowand finishes the year around these numbers (which may not be a safe assumption) do you pick up the 5 million team option, or take the risk he doesnt pick up the 3 million player option.

I pay him. I have saved millions this season and will lose more once some of Ed Wade's trash finds its way outta here. Pay him and groom Bourn. If they suck next yeat, then trade him.

[Geowhizzer]

This is why I like/dont hate Burrell. 

A.  He still produces at a high level no matter what type of stats you want to use, traditional or my favorite, sabermetrics.
B.  I dont believe that the attitude of one player can effect the pitches and swings of his teammates.
C.  Production is more important to me than attitude.  Give me a player who(supposedly) doesnt care like Burrell, but who produces, over a "winner" like Rowand who stinks, any day of the week.
D.  You can not find a fat or ugly person who doesnt hate him (possibly except conlin) and I find it hilarious.  (Not saying everyone who hates him is fat or ugly)

A.  He's produced at a "high level" at most 2 of his 7 years.  2 Years over 100 RBI (traditional method), 2 over 80 (may be considered above average, but not high in this day and age), 2 years with a average over .275, ZERO yeas with less than 130 Ks.  ONE season with an OPS over .900.  He's been AVERAGE.  Not "high level."

B.  His attitude can affect the ATTITUDE of the other players.  Winning is contagious... and so is losing.  The Phillies, unfortunately, are a pandemic of the latter.

C.  Burrell's attitude and production have been inconsistent.  He does have streaks of excellent production (April of this year), but is also suspecptible of prolonged slumps (May, June, or the entire 2003 season)..

You dont think a .900 OPS year is high level?  I have to disagree with you there.  I think he will end up there this year too. 

B.  I just dont understand how this effects anything unless you believe in karma or vibes or whatever the farg that shtein is called, and right now I dont.

C.  He is not consistent during the year by any stretch of the imagination.  But he may be starting to put together a stretch of solid seasons with similiar numbers.  I am probably more optimistic about Burrell than most people though.

As of today, .900 would put Burrell at #35 in MLB in OPS ratings.  Here are the players within .010 of .900:

Scott Hatteburg (.908)
Garrett Atkins (.907)
Carlos Guillen (.905)
Brad Hawpe (.902)
Miguel Tejada (.899)
Pat Burrell (.898)
Carlos Lee (.896)
Frank Thomas (.895)
Bill Hall (.894)
Ray Durham (.890)
Morgan Ensberg (.890)

What big names are there?  Tejada, who adds batting .330 and 77 RBI while playing a position more valued for defense; Lee, who we've discussed already; Frank Thomas, who should eligible for social security any day now, and perhaps Ensberg, who is having a terrible season (I know- he was one of my fantasy picks).

.900 is good.  It's even very good. But it's not elite.  Mike Schmidt, out of 16 "full" seasons (100+ games) had a total of four below .900.  Burrell, in eight seasons, has had one ABOVE.  And Schmidt played in a much less offensively-oriented period than Burrell.  Example- Schmidt's .895 OPS in 1975 ranked 4th in the league.

Schmidt not a fair comparison?  How about Greg Luzinski?  The Bull only had three years over .900 OPS.   The Bull also had six more over .800.

What about the dearly departed Abreu?  Six years over .900.  Three move over .850.

Elite would be hitting CONSISTENTLY over .900, hitting over .950. Schmidt hit .950 or over four times.  The next time Burrell does that will be his first.

And we won't dare compare Burrell's numbers to a certain roid-raging LF in San Francisco.

Burrell's been decent, occasionally good, frequently frustrating.  I wish I had more confidence in Burrell's ability to suddenly turn it on, but at age 30 hitters aren't usually on the upward climb much longer.  Unless Burrell's found Barry's secret stash of HGH.

[Geowhizzer]

I hate Rowand partly because the same fans at the park who hated Abreu and Burrell, idolize Rowand and it makes no sense.

I would rather bring back Ron Gant and put him in centerfield.

that is incredibly accurate.

For the record, I liked Abreu. A lot.  But I also have no problem with the Phillies trading him.  At age 32, his production has significantly declined this year.  While it may rebound some, I think his days of .900 OPS, 30 HR and 30 SB are probably over.  His power seems to be nearly totally gone this season.

I do wish, however, that I had any confidence in the Phillies' ownership to make any legitimate decisions to use any of that freed-up money to:

1.  Get a pitcher that maybe could keep his ERA under 4.00 in CBP (other than Myers).

2.  Actually get a truly productive farm system.

But alas, at age 36 and having watched the Bill Giles Flying Circus for the past two decades, I have no such confidence.

[Geowhizzer]

Well, as much as I like Bourn he is not proven right now. So I would like to find out that he can do a little something before giving up on Rowand. And will Victorino be exposed if he plays everyday?

And I think that him smashing his face up had something to do with his hitting being subpar since. Because I believe that is when he really started to cool off at the plate.

He doesn't walk a lot. Thats true. And thats why I would rather have him hitting 6th.

Ok, so you are the Phillies GM.  Assumming that Rowand finishes the year around these numbers (which may not be a safe assumption) do you pick up the 5 million team option, or take the risk he doesnt pick up the 3 million player option.

Keep him.  He's the best CF option they have right now.  Bourn's not quite ready yet.

Someone has to get all those fly balls that Burrell can't get to. 

[PhillyPhreak54]

Burrell nixed deal to Orioles, sources say
By PAUL HAGEN
hagenp@phillynews.com

ST. LOUIS - What if Pat Burrell had been traded to the Orioles?

According to multiple sources, the Phillies had a deal in place (possibly for pitcher Rodrigo Lopez) that would have sent the leftfielder to Baltimore, but he was unwilling to waive his no-trade clause.

"I was never approached by the Phillies," Burrell said last night.

The explanation, according to sources, is that he was approached informally on more than one occasion by an Orioles employee and that, on each occasion, Burrell made it plain that he would not accept a trade to Baltimore.

In Burrell's defense, he wasn't exactly asked to move to a contending team. The Orioles are buried deeper in the standings than the Phillies.

Still, it's an interesting what-if to ponder. Had Burrell not blocked the move, for example, it's unlikely the Phillies would have traded Bobby Abreu to the Yankees.

Thanks, Pat.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Ok, so you are the Phillies GM.  Assumming that Rowand finishes the year around these numbers (which may not be a safe assumption) do you pick up the 5 million team option, or take the risk he doesnt pick up the 3 million player option.

Burrell's making HOW MUCH next year, and you're whining about Rowand making $5 mill?

[PhillyGirl]

Ok, so you are the Phillies GM.  Assumming that Rowand finishes the year around these numbers (which may not be a safe assumption) do you pick up the 5 million team option, or take the risk he doesnt pick up the 3 million player option.

Burrell's making HOW MUCH next year, and you're whining about Rowand making $5 mill?

Exactly.

And just another reason why the ignore button is so sought after on CF.

[PhillyGirl]

Phil Sheridan | Lidle and Phillies deceive themselves
By Phil Sheridan
Inquirer Columnist

There are no mirrors in the Phillies' clubhouse, although one assumes there must be a few somewhere in the warren of off-limits, players-only space at Citizens Bank Park.

How else would players know if their hair was perfect - a primary concern, according to former Phillies closer Billy Wagner.

Maybe these mirrors become fogged up by the showers. Maybe they are made with curved glass, like the mirrors in fun houses, and don't give an accurate reflection. Maybe they're like the mirror in the Harry Potter books, which shows what you most want to see.

This mirror thing seems relevant after another departed player, pitcher Cory Lidle, fired some nasty little barbs in the direction of the underachieving team from which he'd just been liberated.

Lidle's comments to the New York media echo comments made by Wagner over the last couple of years. There's certainly a ring of truth to what each pitcher said. This Phillies team clearly didn't know how to win, and it seemed fair at times to wonder whether the players cared enough about winning - as opposed to, say, how their hair looked after the game.

What's funny and sad in equal parts is when these comments come from players who personified the problem. That's what gets you wondering about the mirrors.

Apparently, when Lidle looked in those special Phillies mirrors, he saw a fierce competitor who gave his all every fifth day and couldn't count on those mentally soft guys lined up behind him. In short, Lidle looked in the mirror and saw Curt Schilling.

Nobody else did. Manager Charlie Manuel came to refer to Lidle's outings as a "Lidle game" - meaning five or six innings and four or five runs allowed. That sounds about right.

A classic example: In June, during the period the Phillies fell out of contention, Lidle pitched the third game of a series against the Mets. The Phillies had been crushed in the first two games, so they desperately needed the most experienced pitcher in their rotation at that point to deliver a strong performance.

Lidle gave up four runs, including a three-run homer to David Wright, in the top of the first. By the time the Phillies got a chance to bat for the first time, they were already buried. Lidle gave up one earned run the rest of the way, lost by 5-4, and said afterward that he had pitched pretty well.

"Really, I only threw one bad pitch," Lidle said.

That is some mirror. 

Before this starts to read like a full-blown attack on Lidle, let's back things up a bit. The point is that, as a team, these Phillies were consistent only in finding ways to lose important, season-defining games. That was true before Lidle got here and it remained true during his tenure.

Most of the players look around and see teammates who don't want it enough, who aren't committed enough, who don't have the right attitude. The problem is that none of the players seem to see that kind of guy in the mirror.

The fans who disliked Bobby Abreu in spite of his consistent and impressive offensive production perceived this lack of passion and intensity in him. To his credit, Abreu is the one player who has left here who seemed to accept some responsibility for the team's shortcomings in recent years.

After being traded Sunday, Abreu talked about fan support even when he "cost us a game." When asked why this group never reached the postseason, he said simply that the players didn't win the games they needed to.

Abreu, at least, has some grasp on reality and his role in it.

Before the season, Aaron Rowand was asked how his previous team, the White Sox, had come together as a team to win the 2005 World Series. Rowand pointed out that the Sox parted with some very good players, including Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez.

"We went from a team that led the league in home runs and finished second to a team that won the World Series," Rowand said. The Sox won with good pitching and defense, plus smart and aggressive offense.

So how do you get a team to play that way?

"You can't change the personalities of the players who are already there," Rowand said. "You have to bring in the right kind of players."

That's exactly what general manager Pat Gillick referred to when he said it was time to "change the mix." It is not a coincidence that Lidle was among the players in the out basket when that process got under way this weekend.

It is time to reinvent the Phillies. And it is time to invest in some decent, honest mirrors for the clubhouse.

[PhillyGirl]

Lidle backs off, but some Phils return fire
Arthur Rhodes said he confronted Cory Lidle after he saw him surfing the Internet on his computer in the clubhouse during a game. He also said Lidle spent time during games in the clubhouse eating ice cream.
By Jim Salisbury
Inquirer Staff Writer

ST. LOUIS - Cory Lidle apologized to his former Phillies teammates yesterday and said that critical remarks he made about their effort and will to win were misinterpreted.

While Lidle backed off the statements he made Monday, Phillies reliever Arthur Rhodes, who in response called Lidle "a scab" in an interview with the New York Post, did not.

"It wasn't a nice thing to do to the team or the organization," Rhodes said before last night's game against the St. Louis Cardinals. "When I heard that, I had to say something. What I said yesterday was true. He only pitched two good games all year. He never worked out."

When told that Lidle had backed off his remarks, Rhodes shrugged and said, "Of course he did. He's with the Yankees now."

Lidle was traded on Sunday. In a conference call with New York beat writers the next day, the pitcher was critical of his former teammates' approach to the game.

He was the second former Phillie to make such charges, joining Billy Wagner, who in May questioned some of his former teammates' heart and said: "All they cared about was their hair and what they were going to do after the game."

"I'm the type of player that goes to the field every day expecting to win," Lidle said Monday. "Unfortunately, the last few years, I haven't had a clubhouse that expected to win with me. It was almost a coin flip to know if the guys behind me were going to be there to play 100 percent."

Lidle added: "Sometimes it seemed like winning didn't matter at all."

Yesterday, he backtracked.

"The questions were coming at me fast and I think how it was taken, what it sounded like, was that the minute I walked into that clubhouse on any given day, we weren't ready to play," he said at Yankee Stadium. "But really, at that time in the interview, we were talking about the trade deadline. So it had been over the last couple weeks. Almost half the guys on that team weren't expecting to be in that clubhouse that much longer. So you could see that the focus wasn't always on baseball.

"I don't want to say that the words I said were twisted and make it sound like the New York media did this to me, because I believe that my quotes probably sounded a lot worse than how I feel.

"So I want to apologize to all my ex-Phillies teammates about what my quotes sounded like, and hopefully they can just remember me as the kind of person I was. I don't want to leave that situation with any bitterness."

Lidle's initial words did not sit well with several Phillies, not just Rhodes.

"Why does everyone talk trash when they leave here?" asked Brett Myers, who wondered why Wagner and Lidle never aired their complaints to their teammates' faces.

"It was uncalled for," Chase Utley said. "I don't agree with his assessment of how we played behind him, and I take offense to the fact that he said we didn't play hard. That's completely untrue. Personally, I have no problem with the way he pitched for us. But the reason we've lost games has nothing to do with effort."

Lidle was a replacement player for the Brewers during the labor dispute of 1995. In New York yesterday, he said he was surprised Rhodes called him a scab.

"We got along great, played golf and cards on the plane," Lidle said.

That's not the way Rhodes saw it. He said Lidle's status as a replacement player "hurts my feelings." Rhodes added that he and Lidle had a falling-out earlier this season when Rhodes came into the clubhouse during a game and saw Lidle surfing the Internet on his computer.

"I told him he should be out there rooting for his teammates," Rhodes said. "We got into it. I didn't speak to him after that. I didn't want to be associated with him."

On Monday, Rhodes said Lidle cared only about his hobby of flying small airplanes and gambling. Lidle is an avid poker player.

Rhodes also said Lidle spent time during games in the clubhouse eating ice cream.

What flavor?

"Nestle Crunch," Rhodes said yesterday.

Manager Charlie Manuel said he has rules against staying in the clubhouse during games.

"I mention it quite a bit to players about being on the bench. I'm big on that," he said. "I don't have time to run around and find my players, but you're supposed to be on the bench when the game is going on. You can go up in the clubhouse for a short period if you have something to do, but you're always supposed to come back. You're not supposed to be up there for two innings."

First Wagner, now Lidle. What does Manuel think of the Phillies' little soap opera?

"The stuff that came out should have stayed in the clubhouse," he said. "I call it respect for the game, respect for your teammates. Some things should be said in the clubhouse."

[Rome]

I love it when these Hoydas backtrack.  You said what you said.  Have the balls to stick with it and defend what you said if you believed it in the first place.

If not, just shut the farg up and move on.

[PoopyfaceMcGee]

Stark: Phils could have gotten better prospects for Lidle alone

Ugh.

BTW, is there any doubt that the Phillies will continue to cut payroll and remain largely uncompetitive for years to come?  Besides hopefully paying Utley and Howard, I just doubt they'll actually spend any of this money they've dumped.

[Rome]

The thing that disturbed me the post in Stark's piece was when he mentioned the possibility that the Phillies might be in desperate financial trouble.

How the farg can that be?  And if it's true and he wasn't simply talking out of his ass, then why would the Phillies (Monty & Giles) be so insistent about never selling the ballclub?

Strange.